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Apple says it'll remove iMessage and FaceTime in UK rather than break encryption

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Re: Apple says it'll remove iMessage and FaceTime in UK rather than break encryption

#291

Post by duped »

asah wrote: post #252
petercammeraat wrote: post #4

Privacy is a fundamental human right!

Sure, but what exactly is "privacy" ? That's the debate. No sane person believes that there aren't really nasty, organized criminals in the world, and no sane person believes that said criminals have a right to absolute privacy, including e.g. (the moral equivalent of) search warrants. I grew up in a time/place where organized crime was rampant, and if you looked at the wrong person you could be killed. It was time o…

> No sane person believes that there aren't really nasty, organized criminals in the world, and no sane person believes that said criminals have a right to absolute privacy, including e.g. (the moral equivalent of) search warrants.

That's just a strawman.

Plenty of sane people believe that the threat of criminals doesn't outweigh the threat to individual liberty posed by the state. Additionally, plenty of sane people wouldn't support a ban on locks and safes because it makes it harder to search criminals.

I'm pretty sure I have my sanity in check, and I don't think there's any reason for the government to require private enterprise to break encryption to ease prosecution. It should be hard or impossible for governments to spy on their citizens.

Re: Apple says it'll remove iMessage and FaceTime in UK rather than break encryption

#292

Post by zarzavat »

paxys wrote: post #207

The same Apple that lets the CCP operate its entire App Store in China? It's easy to criticize a government when you know there will be no retaliation. To judge a company's true stance on such issues see how they behave when there's a prospect of real financial loss.

The UK and China are not comparable. China is the worlds most populous country (for now). The UK has a population of under 70m. China is a totalitarian regime where even an imperfect freedom is preferable to no freedom at all. The UK is a democratic country which should be upholding the right to privacy.

If Apple weakens crypto for the UK, it affects people in other countries as well. iMessage is not exactly popular in the UK, so it is disproportionately used for transatlantic communication compared to WhatsApp. If Apple complies with the law, they are violating the privacy of users in the US as well.

Re: Apple says it'll remove iMessage and FaceTime in UK rather than break encryption

#293

Post by bilkow »

gavinsyancey wrote: post #178
Roark66 wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is WhatsApp still requiring access to your phone's address book before it allows you to use it? It did last time I tried it. There is no chance in hell I'm giving it all the phone numbers, emails and names of people that trusted me by giving me their details. At the time I set up a virtual android environment (samsung called it knox) just to setup WhatsApp in a way it couldn't access my phone's address book. It is ex…

I currently have WhatsApp installed without access to my address book (on Android). It doesn't require it, but it makes it harder to use and locks out some features. Among other things, you can't start a new group / direct message, but you can participate / reply if someone else messages you first.

I use an app called "Open In WhatsApp" which lets you paste / write a phone number and it will open a conversation with that number (by using android intents). You can also share contacts from the Phone app to this App, so you don't have to copy/paste manually.

https://github.com/SubhamTyagi/openinwa (I recommend downloading from f-droid)

Re: Apple says it'll remove iMessage and FaceTime in UK rather than break encryption

#294

Post by meling »

dtech wrote: post #108
wintermutestwin wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've noticed that too and it is super annoying having family in the UK that will only communicate via Whatsapp. Is this because cell providers outside the US charge for SMS? Even the ones who have iPhones end up using it because it is too much of a pain to use separate messaging apps.

SMS is cheap now but wasn't universally when Whatsapp gained critical mass. Nowadays it's mostly about convenience and features compared to SMS, and iPhone has a much smaller marker share in Europe so iMessage isn't a thing.

I beg to differ. iMessage is definitely quite common in Europe as well.

Re: Apple says it'll remove iMessage and FaceTime in UK rather than break encryption

#295

Post by ghusto »

germinalphrase wrote: post #267
ghusto wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a company that has the power to shift policy in favor of human rights Well you're _technically_ right; they do indeed have that power. However, it sounds like you're suggesting they are using that power _to_ shift policy in favor of human rights (emphasis is of importance). Whilst I can't prove that their intention has nothing to do with human rights, it's only in the same way that I can't prove the last U.S. invas…

iMessage and FaceTime are large parts of the Apple Ecosystem lock-in. What obvious profit motive (separate from PR) would removing them provide?

It doesn't have to deal with compliance issues, which are not only getting more complicated, but also increasing in number.

"Sorry guv, I don't have the keys for that, so I'm not responsible for what went on as I couldn't have known".

Though the biggest money maker is the idea itself. Many believe that Apple is "on their side", and these kinds of plays re-enforce that. The moment it's more profitable to sell you out than "stand up for privacy", they'll do it.

Re: Apple says it'll remove iMessage and FaceTime in UK rather than break encryption

#296

Post by hospitalJail »

Night_Thastus wrote: post #146

There's a lot of good reasons to hate Apple, but when they're right they're right, and I definitely appreciate that they're willing to stand up for something like this, even if it is in their best interest.

This is marketing.

PRISM in the US is proof they don't really care. China and Russia also have data collection on iphones.

Re: Apple says it'll remove iMessage and FaceTime in UK rather than break encryption

#297

Post by FirmwareBurner »

brasic wrote: post #217
FirmwareBurner wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's objectional or inflammatory about my opinion here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36800745

It doesn’t show as flagged for me. Time heals all wounds, if your comment is not objectionable it will usually be vouched for eventually. Which is one of the reasons it’s a rule here that you don’t complain about voting. Such comments also rarely age like wine :)

Well it was flagged in the beginning, it's not like I imagined it.

IMHO people should be allowed to complain otherwise how can we spot deficiencies and injustices and improve?

Re: Apple says it'll remove iMessage and FaceTime in UK rather than break encryption

#298

Post by jrockway »

peoplefromibiza wrote: post #212
sebzim4500 wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Make no mistake: if Apple needed to get someone killed, they would. Ok, I'll play along. Suppose Tim Cook wakes up tomorrow and decides for some reason he wants me dead. How exactly does he do it?

> How exactly does he do it? Just imagine this: Tim Cook travel expenses amount to an half a million dollar per year. travel expenses only. A professional hit man costs between 1/100th and 1/33th of that. Tim has to simply give up on a pair of new shoes that year.

Are you saying that the internal accounting controls at Apple are so lax that Tim Cook can pay contractors off the books out of his own travel expenses?

I also imagine the post-arrest interview of the $5000 hitman going like this:

"You're charged with Murder 1, which is a capital offense in this state. Are you ready to die for $5000?"

"Tim Cook made me do it."

Re: Apple says it'll remove iMessage and FaceTime in UK rather than break encryption

#299

Post by dathinab »

Eighth wrote: post #147
mihaaly wrote: post #123

I wonder why the UK legislators not preparing a new regulation mandating every keys to every door and safe having a bypass mechanism for government officials. Behind every door and every locked place there could be child pornography and illicit materials hidden!! Every house, every hotel safe are suspects! Criminal oversight, criminal oversight! (and if they think their reasoning for backdoors into online chat and co…

Anecdotally, I've heard the argument made that police can knock in doors for raids, and they should have the same power over technology.

but you know

- they still have to be physically there

- one team can do only one raid at a time

- people know if they did a raid

- they needs a judge order and because the previous point you can counter sue if reasonable, at least theoretically

- they can't impersonate you all around the globe including in countries outside of the UK just by raiding you

- a raid is time wise also limited

- police being able to raid doesn't prevent you from guarding yourself against random criminals or agents of foreign hostile governments raiding you

- you know when you are raided

- you are still allowed to put steal doors in your home

- I probably missed a bunch of points

I.e. it's not the same, not at all.

A more correct comparison would to state police can raid you, so they should be able to hack your device but only to retrieve information and being required to leaf a message behind (and even that comparison has issues).

Re: Apple says it'll remove iMessage and FaceTime in UK rather than break encryption

#300

Post by [deleted] »

nxx788 wrote: post #204
shipscode wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’ve gotta be in a wild echo chamber if you consider Biden centrist moderate.

Right? He's clearly center right. Sanders or Warren or AoC are centrist moderates. Or maybe center left. Kshama Sawant is a leftist. There are folks left of her. If you don't see Biden as centrist or even center right, you have a narrow view of the spectrum.

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