Can anyone find a link to Apple’s nine-page submission document?
All reports of this seem to refer back to the same BBC article, which purports to quote from Apple’s submission, but doesn’t link to it.
Apple says it'll remove iMessage and FaceTime in UK rather than break encryption
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Re: Apple says it'll remove iMessage and FaceTime in UK rather than break encryption
#252Privacy is a fundamental human right!
Sure, but what exactly is "privacy" ? That's the debate.
No sane person believes that there aren't really nasty, organized criminals in the world, and no sane person believes that said criminals have a right to absolute privacy, including e.g. (the moral equivalent of) search warrants.
I grew up in a time/place where organized crime was rampant, and if you looked at the wrong person you could be killed. It was time of racism-by-default, thievery-by-default, a lack of investment in R&D, science or infrastructure, and the opposite of a meritocracy. It was an "invasion" of their privacy that ended that era, and now we can comfortably watch Scorcese movies about it over an internet those people would never have invented or invested in.
Re: Apple says it'll remove iMessage and FaceTime in UK rather than break encryption
#253Earlier quoted context omitted.
Wrong. Society is just a social construct, but your right to independent thought and agency, which is powered by privacy, are fundamental to the human experience.
No one is taking away anyone's right to independent thought, at least for now. Patent was talking about privacy though, I'm not sure our species has a fundamental right to it, how did you arrive at that conclusion?
It's a bit difficult to grasp the reasoning behind humans not having the fundamental right to privacy. It seems like the right to privacy/private communication with other sentient creatures is corollary to the right to independent thought, since humans are fundamentally social creatures with an inbuilt need to communicate.
I'm a bit curious how you arrived at the conclusion that you're "not sure our species has a fundamental right to [privacy]". That seems like the absurd claim requiring actual support here, seeing as how privacy is the norm, not the other way around.
Re: Apple says it'll remove iMessage and FaceTime in UK rather than break encryption
#254Earlier quoted context omitted.
I was looking around to see what china has access to after seeing this post... However, people mention their messages can only be visible if icloud backups are enabled? Seems risky to trust either way.
People should read actual documentation and expert or academic writing rather than a bunch of terminally online nerds on Reddit. I’ve seen nothing credible that the E2E for iMessage and FaceTime isn’t as advertised. If you backup to the cloud you’re electing to disclose your data outside the boundaries of encryption.
> People should read actual documentation
Then they should read the leaked government documents from around the world that contradict what Apple says themselves. Failing that, they should at least be able to read the actual code to corroborate its security, but that's not an option either.
Re: Apple says it'll remove iMessage and FaceTime in UK rather than break encryption
#255I wonder why the UK legislators not preparing a new regulation mandating every keys to every door and safe having a bypass mechanism for government officials. Behind every door and every locked place there could be child pornography and illicit materials hidden!! Every house, every hotel safe are suspects! Criminal oversight, criminal oversight! (and if they think their reasoning for backdoors into online chat and co…
Anecdotally, I've heard the argument made that police can knock in doors for raids, and they should have the same power over technology.
Dunno how I feel about that metaphor. To me the current situation isn't just saying "police have the power to kick in doors". It's more like "citizens are banned from building houses with doors that make it hard for police to enter".
Re: Apple says it'll remove iMessage and FaceTime in UK rather than break encryption
#256Earlier quoted context omitted.
> That could be true? IIRC, PRISM was less about direct access, and more about abusing every potential method of gaining information. Direct access to the data was mentioned in the Guardian and other newspapers
Newspapers often get details wrong.
They got that from the leaked documents though
Re: Apple says it'll remove iMessage and FaceTime in UK rather than break encryption
#257Earlier quoted context omitted.
> And changing car brands is way easier than changing smartphone ecosystems, should one of the two players decide to screw you. In what world ? I have switched from iOS to Android and vice versa multiple times while still driving the same car.
>I have switched from iOS to Android and vice versa multiple times while still driving the same car. Did your app purchases form the Google Play Store automatically transfer to your Apple App store, and did your photos off your Google drive transfer to your iCloud, or vice-versa? Read my comment again, I ware referring to the ecosystems not being interchangeable, not the phones themselves. The incompatible ecosystems…
Not sure why you got downvoted, it’s purposely hard to switch ecosystems, I’m in the middle of switching from android to IOS, but still have over a decade of data in gmail, google photos, and google drive. And I waited until my wife was willing/ready to switch because it’s harder to share across ecosystems. Fortunately we don’t own many apps (mostly things with external subscriptions like news, streaming media, etc) so purchasing replacement apps wasn’t painful.
Re: Apple says it'll remove iMessage and FaceTime in UK rather than break encryption
#258Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's true, they merely have enough cash on hand to fund a small army, enough legal power to crush you in court with anything you attempt. Make no mistake: if Apple needed to get someone killed, they would. They're not some miraculous pinnacles of good in a sea of evil. It's just that they merely need to flex the law at you to destroy your life forever. Apple is no different, they'll hire the Pinkertons and break your…
>Make no mistake: if Apple needed to get someone killed, they would. Ok, I'll play along. Suppose Tim Cook wakes up tomorrow and decides for some reason he wants me dead. How exactly does he do it?
Depends on your crime. If you outed his human rights overlook, then he will send you on a vacation to the place with the Human rights violation. And somehow you will get in trouble with the mob there because for some reason they don't like you for threatening their jobs.
If you don't take his vacation offer, he will invite you to a party on his dime. If you don't attend, he will use your location data, make it seem like you were in the wrong place at the wrong time. And depending on the severity and nature of your crime, the outcome will be just low ball enough to make it seem like apple needs to do something bigger than focus on human rights, like making better devices for your security.
Re: Apple says it'll remove iMessage and FaceTime in UK rather than break encryption
#259Earlier quoted context omitted.
Keys are managed by the government.
iCloud Keys are managed by a Chinese company, so in practice, yes. iPhone E2E stuff like iMessage, by definition, does not have keys that anyone else (including the government) possess. Though it hardly matters when ~90% of iPhone users likely have iCloud Backup on. In which case their messages will be backed up to the cloud to where the government could get keys.
Source? IIRC Apple was hosting data from Chinese citizens in China to comply with regulation but still keeping encryption keys outside of China.