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Britain Is a Developing Country

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Re: Britain Is a Developing Country

#201

Post by dragonwriter »

eterm wrote: post #199
madeofpalk wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You would rather live in Russia than the UK?

They're trolling, surely. No-one thinks Russia has a more stable government than the UK. They had a failed coup not even a month ago!

Failed coup attempts are signs that someone wants the government to be unstable, but less so that it actually is.

Russia’s government has been very stable for the last couple decades, with little change in substantive authority even in the inter-Putin period when Medvedev was nominally President; certainly much less substantive change than in the UK.

(One might reasonably suspect its the kind of stability produced by a brittle regime that does not bend and is thus more likely to catastrophically break, though.)

Re: Britain Is a Developing Country

#202

Post by tuukkah »

barry-cotter wrote: post #159
walthamstow wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The past UK standard of living was based on pillaging the colonies, then after divestment of Empire it was briefly propped up in the 80s by North Sea oil and in the 00s by financial deregulation. No shit we're not going to have the same standard of living as the past.

Colonies were always irrelevant to metropolitan standards of living. See how Norway, Sweden and Denmark with tiny or non-existent empires did as well as Britain, or how Germany and Austria-Hungary were no less wealthy than France. Developing makes a country rich. Looting a non-developed country is a one time thing. Developing is ongoing.

Any single colony may have been irrelevant but the colonial world order was and still is relevant. All the western countries that you listed got advantage of participating in the looting, slave trade, resource extraction etc. either directly or indirectly. Even today, the western life depends on e.g. child labor in factories and cattle farming that destroys the rainforests - elsewhere.

Re: Britain Is a Developing Country

#203

Post by madeofpalk »

oska wrote: post #200
madeofpalk wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You would rather live in Russia than the UK?

Yes, that's what I said. I certainly wouldn't have wanted to live in Russia in the 90s, as it was a horrible time for the country. But Russia is vastly improved now, while I see the UK as going, quite quickly, in the opposite direction. And as I also said, this is a fairly new sentiment for me. I have become very disappointed with where the UK is heading and frankly sickened by the actions of its governments, most pr…

I guess this proves so much further how "what x country have going for it" is such a worthless question.

For me, a gay man, living in Russia is a real risk to my life with it's rampant violent homophobia, in a way that I feel pretty safe living in UK (or Australia, where I am from).

But sure, I guess the Russian economy is on the way up? The private military market is booming!

Re: Britain Is a Developing Country

#204

Post by oska »

madeofpalk wrote: post #203
oska wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, that's what I said. I certainly wouldn't have wanted to live in Russia in the 90s, as it was a horrible time for the country. But Russia is vastly improved now, while I see the UK as going, quite quickly, in the opposite direction. And as I also said, this is a fairly new sentiment for me. I have become very disappointed with where the UK is heading and frankly sickened by the actions of its governments, most pr…

I guess this proves so much further how "what x country have going for it" is such a worthless question. For me, a gay man, living in Russia is a real risk to my life with it's rampant violent homophobia, in a way that I feel pretty safe living in UK (or Australia, where I am from). But sure, I guess the Russian economy is on the way up? The private military market is booming!

> For me, a gay man, living in Russia is a real risk to my life

Fair enough, although I would only add a mildly sceptical note that perhaps the 'violent homophobia' is less rampant than is reported in Western media. We are fed a huge diet of anti Russian propaganda in the West. I haven't looked into this matter personally but I would imagine that it would be good to try to find out what ordinary gay men in Russia say about how the situation actually is on the ground (versus what is said in the western press). But certainly, Russia is a more 'socially conservative' country. Although, as you probably know, being gay and being socially conservative are not necessarily antagonistic positions (cf. the great number of gay men in the clergy).

> Australia, where I am from

I'd wondered if you might also be. Partly because I saw your comment elsewhere about not wanting to live in North America & not liking its aesthetic. I feel the same way and it's probably quite common for those who leave Australia and choose the UK over the US out of English speaking countries.

> But sure, I guess the Russian economy is on the way up?

Yes, and I could make quite a case for why that's true. Let me know if you want me to assemble such a case.

Re: Britain Is a Developing Country

#205

Post by Tade0 »

gumballindie wrote: post #149
Tade0 wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm Polish and I had trouble figuring out why would the two countries be put side by side like that, but this: > If the UK continues with the same rate of growth it has enjoyed over the last decade, then Poland will be richer than Britain in about 12 years’ time. I find unlikely. I mean, we're doing good economically wise, but not that good. We're going to catch up to Greece and Portugal soon enough - just like the C…

> I'm Polish and I had trouble figuring out why would the two countries be put side by side like that, Because the author is firmly in the camp that fails to aknowledge any and all progress made by east european countries, and by Poland in particular. Wouldn't fit the narrative of a brexit campaign focused on slandering those nations and their citizens. Furthermore, putting it next to Bangladesh, or India, the author…

> But you know, in Poland, a country with an ever growing economy, eggs are not rationed. So perhaps the author is right in way that Poland may overtake the UK, sooner rather than later. Personally I have full confidence it will.

I don't think it will happen during my lifetime in nominal terms(so e.g. GDP per capita), but to me personally it doesn't matter, because my quality of life is already where I want it to be. Arguably it's even better at home, because here I can at least afford real estate.

Re: Britain Is a Developing Country

#206

Post by anyoneamous »

iLoveOncall wrote: post #80
anyoneamous wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I simply do not understand how anyone can think that the UK is a first-world country if they have ever lived in a real one before. While I am fully on board with the sentiment that we are circling the drain, can you be more specific about where is actually better? I'm interested both from the perspective of potential emigration, but also trying to be rational rather than sensationalist - if I'm stuck here, I want a…

I lived in France, Luxembourg and the US, compared to the UK all feel like if you stepped 100 years in the future, especially Luxembourg. I didn't experience much of the social services in the US so I won't expand on them, but in Luxembourg and France you get world class healthcare for free or very cheap (even for foreigners) in a timely manner, you get years of unemployment benefits, public transportation is better…

So the obvious question is: what's the catch? France is the best comparison of those you mentioned - their GDP and budget deficit are similar to the UK, so where is the extra money coming from to fund this world class healthcare, generous unemployment, and higher class public transport?

Re: Britain Is a Developing Country

#207

Post by rsynnott »

nradov wrote: post #180
ClumsyPilot wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is not 'being out of the EU' by itself, its the fact: 1 - for the past 7 years, the government was doing nothing except infighting around brexit. Things like economic policy have been neglected. Straighforward non-political ssues, like the fact that wind farms wait for 10 years to be connected to the grid, are unaddressed. 2 - the current leadership is braindead. They have spent the past few months discus…

Why can't they just delete certain laws? At some historical point in time that law didn't exist, and most people somehow managed so survive. In a Common Law system, as long as something isn't explicitly illegal then it's legal.

> At some historical point in time that law didn't exist, and most people somehow managed so survive

Generally, existing laws either superseded pre-existing laws (which may well have been repealed by the same process) or regulatory frameworks (which may or may not be still operable).

Re: Britain Is a Developing Country

#208

Post by rsynnott »

Georgelemental wrote: post #77
walthamstow wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The past UK standard of living was based on pillaging the colonies, then after divestment of Empire it was briefly propped up in the 80s by North Sea oil and in the 00s by financial deregulation. No shit we're not going to have the same standard of living as the past.

And how did the UK acquire the strength needed to take those colonies? Would-be conquerors are a dime a dozen, empires as successful as the British not so much

I mean, I don't think "well, they used to have a big empire" says that much about the current state of the country. Shift the dial around a century or so, and you hit at least three other Best Empire countries (Spain, Portugal, Netherlands). I think the British empire is particularly memorable because it was basically the _last_ one (pedantically, shreds of the Portuguese one held on for a bizarrely long time, but the British one was certainly the last one to peak).

Re: Britain Is a Developing Country

#209

Post by rsynnott »

oska wrote: post #191
barry-cotter wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Colonies were always irrelevant to metropolitan standards of living. See how Norway, Sweden and Denmark with tiny or non-existent empires did as well as Britain, or how Germany and Austria-Hungary were no less wealthy than France. Developing makes a country rich. Looting a non-developed country is a one time thing. Developing is ongoing.

> See how Norway, Sweden and Denmark with tiny or non-existent empires did as well as Britain, or how Germany and Austria-Hungary were no less wealthy than France. Sweden had an empire, Austria-Hungary was an empire up till the end of WWI. Also, there was extreme poverty in Norway and Sweden not that long ago (the 19th century), leading many to emigrate to the US. The same with German emigration.

> Austria-Hungary was an empire up till the end of WWI

It was _called_ an empire, but it wasn't an empire in the same sense as the British empire; if Britain had been feeling particularly grandiose they could have called Queen Anne the Empress of England and Scotland as part of the Act of Union on a similar basis. Sweden's was also not a modern colonial empire; it economically did not work at all the same way.

> Also, there was extreme poverty in Norway and Sweden not that long ago (the 19th century), leading many to emigrate to the US.

I mean... there was in the UK, too. For the most dramatic example see the Great Famine in Ireland, but there was extreme poverty all over the UK.

Re: Britain Is a Developing Country

#210

Post by rsynnott »

grej wrote: post #42
crop_rotation wrote: post #6

Does the UK have anything going for it? It is very hard for me to see the UK having a better quality of life in future than they had in the past. Not being part of the EU means they will mostly be squeezed in trade negotiations. And the UK does not have any industry going for it, so sooner or later the living standards would catch up with the rest of the developing world at the middle.

The UK still has a strong military, a particularly strong Navy, plus whatever remains of their portion of North Sea oil and gas. But they missed their window after Brexit to strike the trade deals they needed, and now any trade deal they make will probably be under quite unfavorable terms.

> But they missed their window after Brexit to strike the trade deals they needed

It's unclear that there ever was such a window, given the _sort_ of Brexit they did. By far the most important trade goal for Britain would have been maintaining access to the European market on similar terms to previously (or at least similar terms to, say, Switzerland); everything else paled in comparison. But the form of Brexit chosen made that impossible.

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