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Microsoft faces antitrust scrutiny from the EU over Teams, Office 365

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Re: Microsoft faces antitrust scrutiny from the EU over Teams, Office 365

#81

Post by mdasen »

skrause wrote: post #28

My employer is a prime example for this case: We use Microsoft 365 because we need Microsoft Office and use their email hosting. And then we use Teams simply because it's already included in the package anyway, even though many employees hate it, but it's hard to argue for another solution because why pay for Slack when we already have Teams "for free"? And since Teams doesn't really need to compete on functionality…

    but it's hard to argue for another solution because why pay for Slack when we already have Teams "for free"?
I definitely understand this argument and I definitely understand how it plays out in the real world. At the same time, it strikes me as one of the ways companies can be foolishly cheap. If a product like Teams is making employees so unhappy, it's definitely worth spending some money to fix that. I've never used Teams, but I hear so much complaining about it. When friends are complaining unprompted about a piece of software from work, that seems pretty striking to me.

Yes, it's included with Microsoft 365, but it seems like the cost of it in employee pain make it far from free. I know the appeal of "free" for companies, but Teams seems like an occasion where they're really ignoring a lot of time/effort/frustration that their employees have to go through and the impact that has on their work.

Slack isn't cheap, but if you have reasonably compensated employees do you really want them wasting time and energy over Teams? Though, as I said, I certainly understand how this plays out in the real world. Many companies look at what something is costing them in their budget without having the ability to measure the pain and lost productivity those decisions might be causing.

Re: Microsoft faces antitrust scrutiny from the EU over Teams, Office 365

#82

Post by skc »

theonlybutlet wrote: post #34

I can't understand how Apple keeps getting away scot-free, considering this type of scrutiny exists and how their services work.

Maybe it's hard to muster the enthusiasm to punish a company when you yourself are such a huge fan of their products.

Re: Microsoft faces antitrust scrutiny from the EU over Teams, Office 365

#83

Post by refulgentis »

Dalewyn wrote: post #35
veave wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"massive ad campaigns" is hardly an antitrust matter. Chrome ate Firefox and IE back in the day because it was monumentally better, technologically speaking.

Chrome when it released was faster than Firefox, but it wasn't "better". It ate far more RAM than either Firefox or IE did (and still does), back when RAM capacities were still practically limited, and Chrome was (and is) rendering the internet in Chrome ways much like IE did in Trident ways and Firefox has in Gecko ways. Chrome also had and still has its own UI paradigms, including no title bar, menu bar, nor status…

> Chrome was just like [IE6], rendered whatever it wanted.

> JavaShit

I don't think the increasingly small # of people who still talk this way about the web appreciate how easily this reads as incorrect extremism.

Re: Microsoft faces antitrust scrutiny from the EU over Teams, Office 365

#84

Post by jp_nc »

Shrezzing wrote: post #57
_cenw wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Saw the same pattern with 3 employers over the past 5 years. One killed Slack and all institutional knowledge in its search engine within a month. One replaced all remaining Intel Macs (not an insignificant amount) because Teams would being them to a standstill. The last one is currently happening and I'm wondering what unexpected cost will come to haunt this decision this time. Though one thing that always suffers i…

I think Slack really dropped the ball in 2020, and that's ultimately why the inferior Teams and Zoom platforms have been able to solidify their market shares, and Discord was able to bastardise some of Slack's old market share. It took Slack nearly 2 years after the pandemic started to introduce features like Huddles - by which point, everyone who needed video conferencing software (which was basically every white-co…

Slack dropped the ball earlier than that on audio/video. They acquired Screenhero in 2015 and did nothing of substance with it. Also, the lack of any real meeting features means that Zoom or Teams always has to be in the picture.

Re: Microsoft faces antitrust scrutiny from the EU over Teams, Office 365

#85

Post by toyg »

omk wrote: post #79

Interop compliance should be a thing. Enterprise customers are missing the plot here. Please ask your software vendors to support interoperability. Example - Outlook should support/declare standard interfaces for video calling meeting links from other products. I see the need for a body for enterprise integration standards. Please help me such a body if there already is one. I look specifically for something of the l…

> I see the need for a body for enterprise integration standards.

Both ISO and IETF could and should do that. IETF in particular seems to be less effective than it used to be - an RFC used to mean something, to carry some weight, but now they're often just words into the void.

Re: Microsoft faces antitrust scrutiny from the EU over Teams, Office 365

#86

Post by fuzzy2 »

elric wrote: post #61
skrause wrote: post #28

My employer is a prime example for this case: We use Microsoft 365 because we need Microsoft Office and use their email hosting. And then we use Teams simply because it's already included in the package anyway, even though many employees hate it, but it's hard to argue for another solution because why pay for Slack when we already have Teams "for free"? And since Teams doesn't really need to compete on functionality…

It's particularly galling how Outlook invites *by default* include a Teams link. You can disable this on a per invite basis or in your settings, but it's pretty icky behaviour.

You can disable that: Outlook Options → Calendar → Calendar options → Add online meeting to all meetings

Re: Microsoft faces antitrust scrutiny from the EU over Teams, Office 365

#87

Post by prepend »

elric wrote: post #61
skrause wrote: post #28

My employer is a prime example for this case: We use Microsoft 365 because we need Microsoft Office and use their email hosting. And then we use Teams simply because it's already included in the package anyway, even though many employees hate it, but it's hard to argue for another solution because why pay for Slack when we already have Teams "for free"? And since Teams doesn't really need to compete on functionality…

It's particularly galling how Outlook invites *by default* include a Teams link. You can disable this on a per invite basis or in your settings, but it's pretty icky behaviour.

I don’t like Teams, but I use it.

I like the auto Teams link because it saves me a click when setting up every meeting (and pretty much 99% of my meetings are Teams meetings).

I think this is a case where it makes sense to default on because most people will leave it defaulted on.

Re: Microsoft faces antitrust scrutiny from the EU over Teams, Office 365

#88

Post by draugadrotten »

leokennis wrote: post #67
Shrezzing wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think Slack really dropped the ball in 2020, and that's ultimately why the inferior Teams and Zoom platforms have been able to solidify their market shares, and Discord was able to bastardise some of Slack's old market share. It took Slack nearly 2 years after the pandemic started to introduce features like Huddles - by which point, everyone who needed video conferencing software (which was basically every white-co…

Also, Teams integrates with the other MS stuff. If I share files in a channel, in the background it is "just" a SharePoint which in turn I can add to my OneDrive. Meaning I can save a file in Word to that SharePoint and everyone in the channel can access it.

Teams is a security nightmare, and Sharepoint as well. Access permissions are nearly impossible to grasp for normal users. The feature that all files dropped are shared instantly by everyone through sharepoint is a huge security risk. People in general have no understanding that they are sharing files with everyone that can join a Teams channel, meaning that confidential and sensitive information frequently gets added to Teams chats in "public" channels. Managing the correct permissions on thousands of Teams channels is hard to impossible, even with extra tools. Channel owners often adopt a "allow anyone who knocks" policy when they get permissions requests, because they are busy and do not really understand what they are doing. Sharing files needs to be more cordoned off for security reasons. Not harder or more difficult, just less integrated and not inheriting permissions.

Re: Microsoft faces antitrust scrutiny from the EU over Teams, Office 365

#89

Post by withinboredom »

gls2ro wrote: post #75
withinboredom wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. Let me introduce you to a Mac. Where the messaging software comes preinstalled and you can’t remove it.

what is the market share for MacOS in EU or in US? I bet it is single digit right?

You can’t get mad at someone if you allow everyone else to do it too. That’s anti-competitive, on the government’s side.

Re: Microsoft faces antitrust scrutiny from the EU over Teams, Office 365

#90

Post by Neil44 »

skrause wrote: post #28

My employer is a prime example for this case: We use Microsoft 365 because we need Microsoft Office and use their email hosting. And then we use Teams simply because it's already included in the package anyway, even though many employees hate it, but it's hard to argue for another solution because why pay for Slack when we already have Teams "for free"? And since Teams doesn't really need to compete on functionality…

And the rest of the MS ecosystem is full of dark patterns to funnel you onto it also. Create a new meeting in Outlook - there's automatically a Teams link in it that nobody asked for. Even if it's a Zoom meeting.
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