Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity • Hacker News Board

Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#341

Post by ddd00001 » Tue, Jul 18, 2023, 6:13 PM UTC

synetic wrote: post #317

Vt71fcAqt7 wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>current idiotic system of school funding being largely based on a how much the houses in the area are worth. The long term consequences are bad and quite predictable. This hasn't been true for decades: > on average, both Black and Latinx total per pupil expenditures exceed White total per pupil expenditures by $229.53 and $126.15, respectively. [0] Almost all federal funds go to poor areas, so much so that they have…

From the paper you cited: While total per pupil expenditures may be greater for the typical Black or Latinx students’ districts, there is variation in how these dollars are spent. On average, both Black and Latinx per pupil expenditures exceed White per pupil expenditures for administration, instruction, and social services. On the other hand, Black and Latinx per pupil expenditures are less than White per pupil expe…

I don't understand how you can read that and think that the issue is spending.

The answer is (and always will be) human capital. You could airdrop TJHSST kids into a literal warzone and they would do well. Smart kids are smart because they are smart. There is no magic dirt, and "muh multicausal forces" is pure cope.

People like you got ahold of SF's school system and made Lowell lottery entrance. They swore that it wouldn't have a big impact on test results and that the new class would benefit from being on the magic dirt of Lowell High School. Of course that's what their theories would support. Lo and behold it was an abject failure as anyone who wasn't a psychotic leftist could predict.

Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#342

Post by nancyhn » Tue, Jul 18, 2023, 6:13 PM UTC

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #136

Has anyone tried giving kids a vote in school-board elections? Teachers' unions are increasingly compromised. Electeds use kids as pawns to appeal to radicals to promote random social causes. And parents seem to focus on grades going up at the expense of an actual education. Maybe they'll just vote themselves candy. But in my experience, kids understand--at least as well as the median adult voter--what they need to s…

Remove the monopolitic control of those unions with school choice. Once they have to compete it will resolve the problem post haste.

Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#343

Post by JumpCrisscross » Tue, Jul 18, 2023, 6:13 PM UTC

pwthornton wrote: post #299

This is the way. Teach kids more, not less. Ask more of them, not less. If you need to lengthen the school day and school year to do so, do it. Do it now. "So what should we do instead? Dallas came up with an answer: Teach kids more math instead of teaching them less. In 2019, Dallas Independent School District implemented a new equity policy that encouraged many more people to take honors math classes: Many capable…

> with the goal of improving opportunity for all

I'm chatting with some friends who are parents in the Bay Area. Their admittedly very Californian response is that at least this should reduce competition for college spots. (Their kids are obviously going to get tutoring.)

Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#344

Post by MostlyStable » Tue, Jul 18, 2023, 6:13 PM UTC

pwthornton wrote: post #299

This is the way. Teach kids more, not less. Ask more of them, not less. If you need to lengthen the school day and school year to do so, do it. Do it now. "So what should we do instead? Dallas came up with an answer: Teach kids more math instead of teaching them less. In 2019, Dallas Independent School District implemented a new equity policy that encouraged many more people to take honors math classes: Many capable…

Lengthen the school _year_ sure, but I'm skeptical that lengthening the school _day_ won't have, at best, mixed effects, especially given all the studies on sleep etc.

Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#345

Post by csa » Tue, Jul 18, 2023, 6:14 PM UTC

outworlder wrote: post #178

LatteLazy wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean... It's not entirely "true" Some kids are educatable. Some are not. (and this also depends on subject and other factors) That's true across all races, classes etc. I say this because I actually think the biggest issue in education is that we waste resources on kids who are not educable and hold back whole classes for the one kid who refuses. This, and 101 other issues stem from that policy. A big part of what…

> Some kids are educatable. Some are not. Citation needed. Why wouldn't they be, unless there's a disability? I have seen good teachers do wonders for 'problem' kids.

> Citation needed. Why wouldn't they be, unless there's a disability?

They come from a sub-culture (mostly based on social-economic status) that is aggressively anti-intellectualism.

Being bullied, shunned, etc. for being able to do things like read, do “basic” math, and/or speak anything outside of the local vernacular (e.g., something like a more neutral sounding “TV English”) is a thing.

This type of research is abundant in the education literature. That said, it is not always presented as straightforwardly as one might expect since it doesn’t match up with certain agendas in the education research and policy worlds.

Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#346

Post by fwungy » Tue, Jul 18, 2023, 6:14 PM UTC

Asians outscore all other ethnic groups in school.

The schools are under government order to equalize educational outcomes, but because Asians dominate in educational performance the only feasible way to get outcomes is to crush the top, i.e. it's easier to make everyone dumber than make everyone smarter.

It's not OK to harm Asians to elevate other groups when Asians have been victims of racism in America for hundreds of years.

Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#347

Post by eftychis » Tue, Jul 18, 2023, 6:15 PM UTC

currymj wrote: post #274

You can imagine the following perspective: - Most people don't need to learn calculus at all, and it's fine if the few weird students who do start when they get to college (maybe the advanced students can learn single-variable calculus in high school). - For pure signaling reasons, taking calculus in high school has become very important for college admissions. - In order to take calculus in high school, you need to…

With that kind of thinking though we can reach logical results like:

- writing prose and composition is unnecessary, as at best one will write on slack and social media;

- doing pushups, calisthenics, or running is unnecessary: few jobs require that;

- learning about how the government works, civics or sociology or psychology should be skipped: all these are taken care by the employer that is not going to let you go vote anyways (still don't understand how/why it is not a mandatory holiday, but what do I know);

- debates should be banned: promotes arguing against cops and employers both having detrimental outcomes;

- art is for the rich and private schools: poor populous should not be dreaming;

I suggest -- my 2 humble cents -- the writers of this abomination take a class in logic. Unfortunately, that is math and requires fundamentals they don't want covered.

P.S. My grad school anecdote: our perception and experiences as "international" grad students of the math understanding of incoming undergrads was abysmal to put it lightly. I don't want to be in any future TA shoes.

Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#348

Post by hdior » Tue, Jul 18, 2023, 6:15 PM UTC

pwthornton wrote: post #299

This is the way. Teach kids more, not less. Ask more of them, not less. If you need to lengthen the school day and school year to do so, do it. Do it now. "So what should we do instead? Dallas came up with an answer: Teach kids more math instead of teaching them less. In 2019, Dallas Independent School District implemented a new equity policy that encouraged many more people to take honors math classes: Many capable…

Go have kids, teach them what you want.

STEM minded folks need to eat their own dog food; your sensibilities are not divine mandate.

The other billions don’t owe deference to scientists any more than they do priests.

No scientist is a divine being. Their attitudes can be very human; they think their knowledge and skills is irreplaceable and the social system while trying to pretend that’s objective and could never be leveraged in typically corrupt human ways given their very human being.

In the end you’re one of billions bleating for others to follow the path you lay out. Where is the real or imagine social obligation to specifically serve you or any of the rest of the people here who make up a tiny fraction of the species?

Others think you should learn to grow your own food and kill your steaks rather than exploit the labor of others.

The free market of ideas is not just for selling widgets but tent pole social movements.

Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#349

Post by dmitrygr » Tue, Jul 18, 2023, 6:15 PM UTC

sandworm101 wrote: post #300

toast0 wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If it is the case, while avoiding the privileged ones to run ahead is not ideal, the alternative of doing nothing is even worse (which is in practice what a lot of people criticizing this measure prone: they did not have any plan to change anything before the subject was introduced). > I think that the idea is not to "dumb down" the kids, but to have a goal that everyone can achieve instead of a goal that is imposs…

Let me get this straight. We're behind the rest of our class and we're going to catch up to them by going slower than they are? -Bart Simpson People who fall behind don't need a slower pace. They need to move faster. That means not just more attention but longer hours. But there is only so much time. A school wanting to maximize its graduation rate needs to spend less energy on teaching people who are good at a subje…

Such a school fails its fast learners. Do you really want fewer scientists in the world?

Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#350

Post by tyg13 » Tue, Jul 18, 2023, 6:15 PM UTC

cauch wrote: post #243

stale2002 wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the lectures are given at the NORMAL pace Nobody has a problem with there being options for students to learn at their own pace. The problem is not allowing people to take more advanced classes, if they so choose. > nobody will pretend that this is "dumbying down" the students. If you prevent students from taking more advanced classes, if those students choose it, then yes it would be dumbing down their education.…

> The problem is not allowing people to take more advanced classes, if they so choose. The article itself says that students who want to go ahead will get private lessons. The idea is not stopping people to get more advanced classes, the idea is to cancel more advanced classes as long as "normal pace" classes are not present. The way it works is that if you put an advanced class and no normal pace class, people who n…

> The article itself says that students who want to go ahead will get private lessons.

This is a ridiculously privileged view that hurts the people it claims to help.

As a child, I was heavily invested in math, but I was raised by a mother who had no resources or inclination to pay for private lessons. Luckily my public school district had a few advanced classes available for all, and along with my own initiative, I was able to scrounge up a passable math education.

> The way it works is that if you put an advanced class and no normal pace class,

Caveat: I didn't grow up in California. I don't know how public schools are run there. That being said, this sounds like nonsense to me. There were always normal pace classes for students who excelled less. These were, in my experience, the most populated classes.