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Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

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Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#241
post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Private schools are mostly quite bad and worse than typical public schools. A few outliers distort the general picture.

Anecdotally, but the private schools in my large city are miles ahead of the public schools. The difference is so dramatic. I graduated from the same public school system. The children that went to private schools ended up in a far better place. Do you have any evidence private schooling is bad? This is the first time I've heard it's worse than public school.

> The children that went to private schools ended up in a far better place.

Is this a result of the private schooling or does the socioeconomic status of their parents play a significant role?

I attended both and the people that were rich enough to attend private school but were sent to public school anyway still did very well for themselves, not obviously different from those that attended private school.

Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#242
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I'm OK paying taxes to get to live in a society with universally-available (mostly) fee-free primary and secondary education that aspires to some set of standards. I'm not OK paying taxes to help Bobby Baptist send his kids to Jesus Is Lord Day School. Or kick in to rich parents' budget for Phillips Exeter. If we must have vouchers, let people keep their own tax money that would have gone to schools and use tha…

But Bobby Baptist's kids going to Jesus Is Lord Day School is assimilating those kids into their society at large and Jesus Is Lord Day School still needs to meet the curriculum and testing standards that any other school in the state has to. And more often than not those private schools are _exceeding_ the standard of the public education system. I spent years in both public and private schools. The worst part of pu…

> But Bobby Baptist's kids going to Jesus Is Lord Day School is assimilating those kids into their society at large

No, I think you're missing the parent's point -- it's assimilating those students into a specific religious subculture whose beliefs and values may be at odds with civil society at large.

(If you have trouble seeing this, try substituting "Jesus Is Lord Day School" in your head for some other implied religions.)

Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#243
post #89

The author says > The idea that offering children fewer educational resources through the public school system will help the poor kids catch up with rich ones, or help the Black kids catch up with the White and Asian ones, is unsupported by any available evidence of which I am aware. I was wondering if some people are aware of studies supporting this strategy. I could try to dig them up, but I remember few studies de…

> the lectures are given at the NORMAL pace Nobody has a problem with there being options for students to learn at their own pace. The problem is not allowing people to take more advanced classes, if they so choose. > nobody will pretend that this is "dumbying down" the students. If you prevent students from taking more advanced classes, if those students choose it, then yes it would be dumbing down their education.…

> The problem is not allowing people to take more advanced classes, if they so choose.

The article itself says that students who want to go ahead will get private lessons.

The idea is not stopping people to get more advanced classes, the idea is to cancel more advanced classes as long as "normal pace" classes are not present.

The way it works is that if you put an advanced class and no normal pace class, people who need the normal pace class will fail school over and over again and finally drop out of it, and people will just say "the advanced class is just a normal pace class" without realising it's not the case.

Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#244
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s a reason that folks who are all about “equity” and “centering black voices” are silent about the fact that black people overwhelmingly support school vouchers: https://wpde.com/news/nation-world/new-survey-shows-black-pa... . Many of the issues the “equity” folks talk about recieve far less support from black people, including racial preferences in admissions and hiring (which the majority of black people opp…

People who have a higher propensity to live in a district with shittier schools overwhelmingly support an alternative. This isn’t shocking. What most people, including it seems you, haven’t thought about are the long term consequences to universal voucher programs given the current idiotic system of school funding being largely based on a how much the houses in the area are worth. The long term consequences are bad a…

>current idiotic system of school funding being largely based on a how much the houses in the area are worth. The long term consequences are bad and quite predictable.

This hasn't been true for decades:

>on average, both Black and Latinx total per pupil expenditures exceed White total per pupil expenditures by $229.53 and $126.15, respectively.[0]

Almost all federal funds go to poor areas, so much so that they have more funding on average.

[0]https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/23328584198724...

Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#245
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I'm OK paying taxes to get to live in a society with universally-available (mostly) fee-free primary and secondary education that aspires to some set of standards. I'm not OK paying taxes to help Bobby Baptist send his kids to Jesus Is Lord Day School. Or kick in to rich parents' budget for Phillips Exeter. If we must have vouchers, let people keep their own tax money that would have gone to schools and use tha…

One of the key problems in the US funding system is that population clustering effects will cause exacerbating effects where people of increasingly similar socioeconomic and cultural strata all stick together - of course this will cause rising inequality and unequal outcomes. The people living in the gated communities fund their local school primarily, not the poor one on the other end of the street that can't get or…

The funding thing's a red herring. The best-funded schools in my state, with by far the highest spending per pupil, excluding special cases (e.g. schools that are also correctional institutions or otherwise not an ordinary school, so obviously have sky-high costs), are also among the very worst we've got, and it's looked like that for years. Throwing more money at schools in poor areas has had little effect on outcomes—not to say we shouldn't even out funding or even give poor-performing schools extra funding (which we already are doing, and if we just evened out funding, we'd be taking money away from the schools in very-poor areas and giving it to "richer" ones) but it very much does not look like doing that will have much effect on educational outcomes.

Money is part of the cause, but where it comes in is letting parents sort their families into expensive-to-live-in school districts with other parents who could also afford those expensive areas. Their kids tend to be easier to teach for a whole bunch of reasons—which does make the schools more effective, but is not because of extra money spent on the schools. The sorting enabled by money does matter, but the funding itself (received by the schools) does not appear to be a major factor.

Basically, a family pays for school quality in the US no matter what, either directly or indirectly—you pay either with tuition for expensive, good private schools if you're fairly rich, or with real estate and transportation costs if you're not that rich, with a sliding scale all the way down to "practically destitute". The extravagant spending of expensive private schools might result in better education (I'm thinking especially of the very-small class sizes, like 4-8 students per class, and the ability to pay for content-area PhDs as teachers in higher grades—we'd have to triple public school budgets to do that stuff, and that actually wouldn't even be enough because demand would so badly outstrip supply, should we try it) but beneath those relatively-few outliers with far-higher spending, moving spending/budgets up or down a (relatively) little doesn't seem to do much.

Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#246
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I'm OK paying taxes to get to live in a society with universally-available (mostly) fee-free primary and secondary education that aspires to some set of standards. I'm not OK paying taxes to help Bobby Baptist send his kids to Jesus Is Lord Day School. Or kick in to rich parents' budget for Phillips Exeter. If we must have vouchers, let people keep their own tax money that would have gone to schools and use tha…

Public education system is definitely a positive thing that most of us will pay taxes for. However when public education is not guided by improving meaningful outcomes, but by ideologues, it needs to be checked. Vouchers sounds like a good way to insert some market dynamics and to allow parents to walk away from schools that are on the path to fail to prepare their kids for the future. My son is currently is in publi…

However when public education is not guided by improving meaningful outcomes, but by ideologues, it needs to be checked. Vouchers sounds like a good way to insert some market dynamics and to allow parents to walk away from schools that are on the path to fail to prepare their kids for the future.

As opposed to parental ideologues? By letting parents choose, we'll be letting them go to different schools championing different value system and the customers will be parents, not the children they ostensibly are charged with educating.

By grouping parents with like-minded parents, we'll amplify groups and clusters, leading to not only further stratification but also further decoupling society and greater inequality.

Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#247

The Dallas experiment is interesting, and it’s not surprising at all that the students actually learned more than if they had been in less-advanced classes. The question I have is what the grades look like for the kids who were somewhat involuntarily included in the class. In junior high, grades don’t matter all that much, but come high school it could be worse to have lower grades in more challenging courses, depend…

This is only realy relevent for college admissions. Having a high school degree is a credential that matters, but few people will look at the GPA on it. For college admissions, the admissions offices aren't stupid. They generally don't look at "GPA", but compute it themselves. A small private school might need to worry about how colleges interpret their transcripts. But a system as large as California? Colleges will…

Last I checked was decades ago, but even then colleges were looking at class rank as GPA could not be compared between schools. SAT scores can be compared, but even then only to others taken the same year (realistically the yearly test changes are small enough that you can safely compare over a few years and be close enough)

Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#248
Thanks for folks pointing out the link to the article on Dallas -- I'll post it here to boost it. https://www.the74million.org/article/dallas-isds-opt-out-pol...

25 years ago I was part of my National Honor Society outreach committee. One of the things I and my committee co-chair did was go to all the "normal" (rather than IB) classes and tell students that with a good GPA they could join NHS (as NHS did have a demographic makeup that wasn't reflective of the school). Students had no idea. The outreach did make a difference. The Dallas experiment, and the tutoring discussion in the article, resonate deeply with my later experiences as a math prof as well. Pushing kids results in higher achievement.

Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#249
post #9

The Dallas experiment is interesting, and it’s not surprising at all that the students actually learned more than if they had been in less-advanced classes. The question I have is what the grades look like for the kids who were somewhat involuntarily included in the class. In junior high, grades don’t matter all that much, but come high school it could be worse to have lower grades in more challenging courses, depend…

I understand that grades matter for getting into college, but this mindset is viscerally horrifying to me. It almost reads to me as: "What if people were appropriately challenged and learned more? Wouldn't that be horrible?" Grade inflation is a terrible thing, even if it is likely an intractable problem because of the incentives that go into it.

I wouldn't advocate for grade inflation, and there's no indication here that's what happened. I would advocate for analyzing which types of students were well-served by the change, taking into account their learning and the effect on their GPA.

I would expect that it wouldn't be that difficult to select kids (perhaps based on prior performance in math classes, or overall GPA) to opt them into the class. This would be more fine-grained than simply shunting all kids into an advanced class.

Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It probably needs to be said because of situations like that in Baltimore, Maryland. The city spends more than 97% of what other major school districts spend, and yet it's students are on average some of the worst performers: https://foxbaltimore.com/news/project-baltimore/baltimore-ci...

The answer is simple, though. When you invest the money exclusively in the schools and what happens in the schools, your reach is extremely limited. In Baltimore, and everywhere else, raising the minimum wage, offering free daycare & preschool, and improving the social services that prevent many low income kids from learning outside of the school (and parents from supporting them) is what will make the real differenc…

You know they tried all this stuff right?
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