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Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

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Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#331

Post by fooker »

currymj wrote: post #274

You can imagine the following perspective: - Most people don't need to learn calculus at all, and it's fine if the few weird students who do start when they get to college (maybe the advanced students can learn single-variable calculus in high school). - For pure signaling reasons, taking calculus in high school has become very important for college admissions. - In order to take calculus in high school, you need to…

Students from the rest of the world learn calculus when they 15-18.

It’s interesting to see how quickly America is being dumbed down by stupid policies.

College level science and engineering education doesn’t make sense without a understanding of at least basic calculus.

Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#332

Post by stale2002 »

cauch wrote: post #243
stale2002 wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the lectures are given at the NORMAL pace Nobody has a problem with there being options for students to learn at their own pace. The problem is not allowing people to take more advanced classes, if they so choose. > nobody will pretend that this is "dumbying down" the students. If you prevent students from taking more advanced classes, if those students choose it, then yes it would be dumbing down their education.…

> The problem is not allowing people to take more advanced classes, if they so choose. The article itself says that students who want to go ahead will get private lessons. The idea is not stopping people to get more advanced classes, the idea is to cancel more advanced classes as long as "normal pace" classes are not present. The way it works is that if you put an advanced class and no normal pace class, people who n…

> the idea is to cancel more advanced classes

Canceling advanced classes quite literally prevents people from taking those classes.

If someone doesn't want to do the advanced classes, they don't have to. But don't prevent others from taking those classes if they want to take them.

> people who need the normal pace class

This is about allowing people to take the advanced classes if they choose, and allowing others to take normal classes.

And other people, who want to cancel the advanced classes, are definitely the ones who want to dumb things down.

Just allow people to take those advanced classes if they choose, and allow others to take take the normal classes. Problem solved.

Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#333

Post by [deleted] »

javajosh wrote: post #207
dealuromanet wrote: post #143

If someone is blocking a child from learning more and moving faster than others because of “equity”…then some school districts need to start firing some bureaucrats. Take away teaching licenses if someone is unwilling to uphold an oath to do their best with each student even if it means some students are smarter and faster than others. You cannot escape reality. You will not stunt the brightest in the name of this fa…

>Harrison Bergeron is a dystopia, not a training manual There are people, many people, who disagree with you. In good faith. They want the best for everyone, and they see inequality as the source of much suffering, and does it not make sense to address the core of the problem? The problem with such people is that they lack the imagination and humility to understand the downsides to their proposed "solution". They cho…

[deleted]

Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#334

Post by JumpCrisscross »

currymj wrote: post #274

You can imagine the following perspective: - Most people don't need to learn calculus at all, and it's fine if the few weird students who do start when they get to college (maybe the advanced students can learn single-variable calculus in high school). - For pure signaling reasons, taking calculus in high school has become very important for college admissions. - In order to take calculus in high school, you need to…

> it's only a small number of unusual people who need to learn calculus

Any STEM career. Finance and economics. Data science--the component they're replacing middle-school algebra with, the CMF's authors know as much about data science as about math.

Californians whose parents can't afford tutors have been effective gated from these careers.

Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#335

Post by proxiful-wash »

pwthornton wrote: post #299

This is the way. Teach kids more, not less. Ask more of them, not less. If you need to lengthen the school day and school year to do so, do it. Do it now. "So what should we do instead? Dallas came up with an answer: Teach kids more math instead of teaching them less. In 2019, Dallas Independent School District implemented a new equity policy that encouraged many more people to take honors math classes: Many capable…

It was you wonder if a foreign state adversary is influencing us to stupify our next generation. I'll keep my comments civil here but its pretty obvious who is behind this.

Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#336

Post by selimthegrim »

meroes wrote: post #166

Math major here. Go for it CA. The current "STEM pipeline" is garbage and underserving. A larger populace not excluded from the pipeline (because it wont exist) and not being turned off by math before high school is actually a step in the right direction. It will take an economy the size of CA to upend things, and they need to be upended. If it's progressive to have a larger base of the mathematically literate, then…

I feel like your complaint has more to do with the teaching structure in university academia, then the high school and middle school level. Nevertheless, a much greater focus on algebra two as the capstone would even help kids for pre-engineering where they just would need to learn some rudiments of calculus in college.

Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#337

Post by bamfly »

devonkim wrote: post #315
bamfly wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The funding thing's a red herring. The best-funded schools in my state, with by far the highest spending per pupil, excluding special cases (e.g. schools that are also correctional institutions or otherwise not an ordinary school, so obviously have sky-high costs), are also among the very worst we've got, and it's looked like that for years. Throwing more money at schools in poor areas has had little effect on outcom…

I'm not disagreeing that throwing money at bad schools won't really help is the thing although it might seem like that's where my line of thinking may lead. Heck, usually more money at schools from what I've seen ranges from more administrators (lol if anyone thinks that helps) to equipment for students (as if an iPad will help a disengaged kid that much?). Add in the reality that lower socioeconomic status folks ten…

OK, yeah, I think we're basically in agreement.

The core problem is that the effective route to massive improvements in equality of access to quality public education is basically "solve poverty, and concentrations of poverty", which isn't within the scope of schools' mission and is going to be far harder to sell, politically, take a long time, and be incredibly expensive.

We tried "bussing", which directly confronted parts of this, and it fucking worked, which makes it practically unique among attempts to address this problem, and it was relatively cheap compared to other things we might try that could work, but literally everyone hated it (yes, even the poorer families) so I guess that's out.

Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#339

Post by [deleted] »

javajosh wrote: post #207
dealuromanet wrote: post #143

If someone is blocking a child from learning more and moving faster than others because of “equity”…then some school districts need to start firing some bureaucrats. Take away teaching licenses if someone is unwilling to uphold an oath to do their best with each student even if it means some students are smarter and faster than others. You cannot escape reality. You will not stunt the brightest in the name of this fa…

>Harrison Bergeron is a dystopia, not a training manual There are people, many people, who disagree with you. In good faith. They want the best for everyone, and they see inequality as the source of much suffering, and does it not make sense to address the core of the problem? The problem with such people is that they lack the imagination and humility to understand the downsides to their proposed "solution". They cho…

[deleted]

Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#340

Post by dealuromanet »

javajosh wrote: post #207
dealuromanet wrote: post #143

If someone is blocking a child from learning more and moving faster than others because of “equity”…then some school districts need to start firing some bureaucrats. Take away teaching licenses if someone is unwilling to uphold an oath to do their best with each student even if it means some students are smarter and faster than others. You cannot escape reality. You will not stunt the brightest in the name of this fa…

>Harrison Bergeron is a dystopia, not a training manual There are people, many people, who disagree with you. In good faith. They want the best for everyone, and they see inequality as the source of much suffering, and does it not make sense to address the core of the problem? The problem with such people is that they lack the imagination and humility to understand the downsides to their proposed "solution". They cho…

I think a good solution is universal basic income that increases in size as automation unlocks more for everyone. Then over time, everyone becomes increasingly empowered to self-actualize at their localized maximum learning velocity without needing to stunt someone brighter. Sam Altman has a correct understanding on how automation will reduce the marginal cost of doing business so much so that universal basic income becomes not only feasible but logical. People are not equal learners - some are smarter than others and some learn faster than others. Ignoring this reality does not change it. What you can do instead is allocate resources more efficiently by leaning into the disruption of AI and other efficiency gains to give people an equal gift that respects individuals - namely, a universal basic income that creates a society of people who are always learning and getting smarter at their best possible speed. The reason this won’t be fronted as often is because distributing cash directly to people is too simple a solution to hide ideologue-bureacrats-in-the-middle.
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