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The US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the US is now nearly 2X

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Re: The US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the US is now nearly 2X

#631

Post by nvm0n1 »

0xcde4c3db wrote: post #331
landemva wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> it would imply the standard of living is increasing. In USA, GDP includes the explosion of numbers of hospital admin staffers, energy prices doubled, and production of munitions which are given to Europe. That GDP does not increase my quality of life.

This reminds me of an old "ad" (not sure it was ever placed anywhere) questioning a similar tendency [1]: > For years, economists have defined the economic health of a country by its gross domestic product. Trouble is, every time a forest falls, the GDP goes up. With every oil spill, the GDP goes up. Every time a cancer patient is diagnosed, the GDP goes up. Is this how we measure economic progress? Economists must l…

> cancer patient is diagnosed, the GDP goes up. Is this how we measure economic progress?

Yes, obviously so! Diagnosing cancer early is one of the best ways to save someone from it. The cancer is there anyway, it's a natural occurrence. The economic activity that leads to and follows a cancer diagnosis is what economists call wealth: the things we do for each other than make each side mutually better off.

All the examples are like that. Nobody wants oil to spill, but accidents are a fact of life. The GDP created by mopping it up on the other hand leads to a cleaner environment, which is another form of wealth.

Re: The US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the US is now nearly 2X

#632

Post by noelherrick »

dehrmann wrote: post #463
cbsmith wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So if employees are more productive, you would naturally expect all of the benefits of that increased productivity to go to their employers? I'm curious as to your reasoning about why people do anything other than the absolute minimum to receive their paycheck.

If my employees are more productive, I need fewer employees to produce the same number of widgets. If this happens across all industries, the price of labor goes down because there's more labor and fewer jobs. Historically, between lower prices driving more demand, other workers driving the productivity gains (maybe they make robots for factories), and new opportunities for workers, we still have full employment, but…

Folks that get laid off from one industry because of productivity gains go to another one. The most dramatic example is farming, where in 1800 it used be that 90% of people were farmers and in 2000, 1.8% were employed in ag. Closer to home for many of us, there are more software engineers and we're dramatically more productive this generation due improvements in languages, raw processor power, storage technologies, open-source libraries, databases, and tools. The price of our labor has gone up because we're able to produce more.

Re: The US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the US is now nearly 2X

#633

Post by nocoiner »

fransje26 wrote: post #572
FredPret wrote: post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US economic performance is all the more OP if you take into account that it's a huge country of 350m people and has a diversified economic base. For a tiny banking nation or petrostate to be rich is unsurprising. But when it's half a continent, the world really ought to take out their notebooks and go into full copycat mode - at least as far as economic policy and attitudes are concerned.

I, too, would prefer monthly shoot-outs to help regulate my population. And low-paid wages below the poverty line. And fentanyl as a substitute to affordable healthcare. Folks, please leave your notebook in your bag and search elsewhere for a role model.

Against my better judgment, I’m going to make a statement that sounds incredibly crass, but is directionally true: those are all travesties that no decent society should accept, but at the end of the day, they’re rounding errors.

There’s plenty that’s wrong with America, but there’s no other country within the same order of magnitude of scale (or, hell, expand that to either a population of 50+ million or an order of magnitude greater, even) that has long term prospects as promising as the United States.

China’s on the verge of demographic collapse. Europe, as much as I love to visit and would probably enjoy living there, is more or less the definition of sclerotic. Every other country that excels at both human and economic development is too small to move the needle. Yet the United States remains, overall, a pretty darn good place to live and a magnet for talent and capital all over the world (to say nothing of its own beyond-bountiful resources).

Re: The US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the US is now nearly 2X

#634

Post by nvm0n1 »

beebeepka wrote: post #426
FredPret wrote: post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US economic performance is all the more OP if you take into account that it's a huge country of 350m people and has a diversified economic base. For a tiny banking nation or petrostate to be rich is unsurprising. But when it's half a continent, the world really ought to take out their notebooks and go into full copycat mode - at least as far as economic policy and attitudes are concerned.

Are you suggesting the EU should start pillaging countries? What petrostate should we liberate to becone self-sufficient? As luck would have it, the US achieved that right after conquering Iraq

The US is self-sufficient in oil because it developed the tech to do fracking of the oil sands, it's nothing to do with Iraq.

Re: The US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the US is now nearly 2X

#635

Post by ChatGTP »

FirmwareBurner wrote: post #620
ChatGTP wrote: post #617

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Europeans miss the point that you still need money to fund all those generous social benefits we have. Not entirely, of course you need money but you need people who believe in the cause to work towards it and make sacrifices. I work for a NFP, I took a paycut to do it. I'm happier for it. I think a lot of America goes wrong because most people want their cake and to eat it too. Free healthcare? It will require sacri…

Let me know when you meet the first people who voluntarily agree with paying higher taxes. Everyone I know in EU wants to pay less taxes, not more, as they don't trust the state with how it has spent their taxes so far (aka on corruption and cronyism). Canadians pay higher taxes than Americans and their social services aren't that much better now that the US's. Why isn't it working for them if higher taxes and not a…

To be fair, I'd also agree with more taxes, provided those in power would be held accountable and punished severely for mismanaging it, but as long as they're unaccountable and spend my taxes like drunken sailors giving it to their golf buddies in the private sector while pushing for austerity for the plebs, I'll do everything I can to pay less taxes to the state so I can defund it of the capability of improper spending, and use that extra money to take care of myself and my loved ones.

You see, that is already happening, just through other means. The political situation isn't really favoring Joe Sixpack, or even software engineers, it's benefiting the very few ultra wealthy.

You know how nowhere near enough is being done about climate change? That's because no one in government really cares about the impacts on you or your family. Because the energy companies are happy.

Google and Meta stealing your private information without your consent? Nothing will be done about that either because corporations own America.

IMO the fact we pay lower tax and are all just thinking it means we're better off by default is the joke. It is the pacifier.

I 100% agree with you though, higher tax does not mean things get better, absolutely not. What people have to do is grow brains and participate in democracy and not via Twitter on Instagram but actually doing some work.

Re: The US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the US is now nearly 2X

#636

Post by oblio »

geysersam wrote: post #627
karp773 wrote: post #619

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With all due respect to Eisenhower, this is an example of incredible political myopia. A country does not exist in a political vacuum and has to be able to protect its freedom and the very right to exist. So freedom is not free but comes at a price. How high the price is depends on the situation. Sometimes it's very high, unfortunately. Complaining about this fact is as productive as complainig about gravity: if only…

It's not a fact that the US needs to spend 50% of the global military budget. If anything is myopic, that is. It can still be argued that it's worth the expenditure. But the cost should be weighted against the alternatives. Neither Russia or China can be said to threaten the US with their military, except with nuclear weapons, but no defence budget protects against those.

It's also myopic to think that having a large conventional army that deters rivals from attacking smaller trade partners is not beneficial.

Also, the US Navy protects vital global sea lanes that benefit US trade.

Also:

> Neither Russia or China can be said to threaten the US with their military

China is arming up at a huge pace, even outside of nukes.

Re: The US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the US is now nearly 2X

#637

Post by noelherrick »

Alupis wrote: post #70
mepian wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah yes, the good ol' trickle-down economics.

It's very difficult to argue in good faith "trickle-down" economics was/is a failure. A rising tide obviously raises all ships, including the nation's poorest. To create vast wealth generally requires vast resources, which requires vast amounts of people. Behemoths the size of Amazon, Walmart, Microsoft, Google, et al employ significant chunks of the population - and not just directly. Trickle-down doesn't mean every…

You can definitely argue that trickle-down economics was a failure. London School of Economics does exactly that.[0] I am also a bit surprised that you haven't heard the absolute despair of Millennials and Gen Z. Wealth inequality is off the charts. If wasn't for Mark Zuckerberg, Millennials would have an average negative net worth (mostly joking). This isn't a matter of complaining that you have to cut down on avo toast, it's people not going to the doctor, dentist, having to pile into small houses, always be on the edge of your car breaking down. We're the wealthiest country in the world, but folks have to start GoFundMe's to pay for healthcare. Wild.

[0] https://www.cbsnews.com/news/tax-cuts-rich-50-years-no-trick...

Re: The US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the US is now nearly 2X

#638

Post by oblio »

nvm0n1 wrote: post #634
beebeepka wrote: post #426

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you suggesting the EU should start pillaging countries? What petrostate should we liberate to becone self-sufficient? As luck would have it, the US achieved that right after conquering Iraq

The US is self-sufficient in oil because it developed the tech to do fracking of the oil sands, it's nothing to do with Iraq.

Europe could be self sufficient in oil and gas (we're constantly finding new reserves in EU/EU associated territory), it just doesn't want to dig those up because it's hugely destructive for the environment.

Re: The US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the US is now nearly 2X

#639

Post by oblio »

FirmwareBurner wrote: post #606
lostlogin wrote: post #604

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And despite this, those socialised systems still have better outcomes per dollar spent.

Maybe if you can stomach the waiting times but then the private medical sector wouldn't be growling so rapidly for procedure the state also does.

Anecdotally many people in Europe find waiting times comparable in the US and EU.

Unless you have studies to back this up, I'd drop the waiting time argument.

Re: The US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the US is now nearly 2X

#640

Post by HPsquared »

karp773 wrote: post #619
HPsquared wrote: post #564

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eisenhower put it well. "Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children. The cost of one modern heavy bomber is this: a modern brick sch…

With all due respect to Eisenhower, this is an example of incredible political myopia. A country does not exist in a political vacuum and has to be able to protect its freedom and the very right to exist. So freedom is not free but comes at a price. How high the price is depends on the situation. Sometimes it's very high, unfortunately. Complaining about this fact is as productive as complainig about gravity: if only…

Some budget is needed but it comes at a cost. It's a balancing act, like all economic decisions.
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