I have written about this before on HN. Forget about GDP or PPP. What really matters for quality of life is local currency median income. If it is rising at a good rate above inflation levels, then your quality of life is getting better. Nothing else really matters at the ground level.
The US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the US is now nearly 2X
601–610 of 767 posts
Re: The US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the US is now nearly 2X
#602Here’s a better comparison. The thing that really hurt the Eurozone was the 2011 - 2013 recession that the US did not experience. Plus there’s a slower growth rate even in the good times. https://freedomandprosperity.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/... That said, these numbers are very misleading and do not show well what a person’s life looks like in the US. By my own anecdotal estimation, in the EU low and medium in…
> All of this is deep in the political psyche that wants to cut down the tall poppies. What you call "cut down tall poppies" others call "correcting thousands of years of aristocracy-fuelled unfairness". European wealth has much older roots. In a few centuries, Americans will likely reach a similar political point.
European old money is doing just fine. It's the middle class taxed to death on every additional 10 bucks yes still not rich enough for "tax optimization" that is being fucked over.
Re: The US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the US is now nearly 2X
#603Earlier quoted context omitted.
>> it would imply the standard of living is increasing. In USA, GDP includes the explosion of numbers of hospital admin staffers, energy prices doubled, and production of munitions which are given to Europe. That GDP does not increase my quality of life.
> That GDP does not increase my quality of life It sure as hell does for the millions employed thereby, as well as those who catch their spending.
Most negative things have an upside for someone, that doesn’t mean you have to like it.
Re: The US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the US is now nearly 2X
#604Earlier quoted context omitted.
The gap between American doctors and those in some European countries is even higher than the one between software engineers.
Because public healthcare systems dictate how much a doctor is to be paid and how much each procedure should cost, in the public system, which is why the public system keeps getting more bogged down as the sums the state allocates aren't keeping up with the increased inflation and demand, so more and more people need to rely on the private system.
And despite this, those socialised systems still have better outcomes per dollar spent.
Re: The US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the US is now nearly 2X
#605Earlier quoted context omitted.
I actually think it's the opposite, I always see Americans getting really snarky about Europe, I could go back and find plenty of examples but I have better things to do. Personally I think average Americans have a hard time imaging a world where there is more to life than money. Ultimately whenever I see these "murica" centric posts, I remember them flying in emergency medical supplies from China and everybody being…
Given how pervasive money is in everything we do, even just hiking in nature (how much did those hiking boots cost you? Did you get a cheap pair or an expensive pair? How long will they last until you have to buy a new pair?), or just having friends over to chat (their money status has an effect on how they're doing). There's more to life than money, but it's pretty central.
>There's more to life than money, but it's pretty central.
Europeans miss the point that you still need money to fund all those generous social benefits we have. Without money and a stagnating economy there will be less welfare to go around.
I've lost track of how many financially illiterate people told me "I don't care about the economy, as long as we still have great quality of life" who miss the part where that great quality of life is funded by that same economy they don't care about.
Re: The US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the US is now nearly 2X
#606Earlier quoted context omitted.
Because public healthcare systems dictate how much a doctor is to be paid and how much each procedure should cost, in the public system, which is why the public system keeps getting more bogged down as the sums the state allocates aren't keeping up with the increased inflation and demand, so more and more people need to rely on the private system.
And despite this, those socialised systems still have better outcomes per dollar spent.
Maybe if you can stomach the waiting times but then the private medical sector wouldn't be growling so rapidly for procedure the state also does.
Re: The US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the US is now nearly 2X
#607Earlier quoted context omitted.
Good for them, I know plenty others who didn’t including my entire family. That still isn’t the point, the quality of life in the USSR wasn’t a close 2nd to the US in fact when the USSR economy started to fall apart in the late 70’s and 80’s it too switched to PPP because hey our bread is cheap even if you need to stand in line to get it. And Guyana today isn’t a better place to live in than France or Canada, and Bul…
>Good for them, I know plenty others who didn’t including my entire family. There's a YouTube channel where an interviewer talks to people in various Russian cities today about the war and other topics. Loads of middle-aged and older women and men (esp. women it seems) say they want the Soviet Union back. Your family was one of the malcontents that left. The people still there really do miss the authoritarian Soviet…
What percentage want the old Soviet Union back? I don't think you know what you're talking about.
Re: The US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the US is now nearly 2X
#608Earlier quoted context omitted.
> What you call "cut down tall poppies" others call "correcting thousands of years of aristocracy-fuelled unfairness". European wealth has much older roots. What does taxing _income_ of upper-middle class high-earners (who are probably coming somewhere from Eastern Europe and are not related to Habsburgs or something) have to do we dealing with _generational_ wealth of old-money families? In fact, descendants of well…
OP directly mentioned wealth tax though. also wealth generates income. plus taxing income is easier, less transaction costs. (no need to sell the house to pay wealth tax.) of course non of these invalidate your observation about landed gentry, absurd housing prices, etc.
> also wealth generates income.
So tax income types that tend to come from wealth instead. Compared with regular salary income that is heavily taxed in Europe those usually incur significantly lower tax rates (long-term capital gains tax, dividend tax, etc.).
> plus taxing income is easier, less transaction costs. (no need to sell the house to pay wealth tax.)
You are confused about how wealth taxes usually work. They are something you pay every year based on your total assets, not when you sell the assets (these are capital gains or property gains taxes).
> of course non of these invalidate your observation about landed gentry
Becoming a landed gentry is intentional end game of current asset owning classes in Europe. Let's take Sweden as a worst offender - locals sit on top of their multimillion+ property (that they either inherited with 0 inheritance tax or got with tax-deductible mortgage when prices were saner), don't pay any wealth taxes and would like immigrants to pay for their welfare state with crazy income taxes while simultaneously extracting exuberant rents from them indefinitely by making housing basically unobtainable through regular income. Mind you this isn't European-specific problem (prop 13 landed gentry says hello), but Europeans tend to have this annoying holier-then-thou attitude towards the US paired with complete lack of self-awareness.
Re: The US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the US is now nearly 2X
#609Earlier quoted context omitted.
Consumption is a terrible proxy for quality of life. It's also terribly USAian of you.
Not really. Europeans aren't some superior noble ascetics. People want to consume, and their demand exceeds their ability in practically all situations. So USians are getting more of what they want while most Europeans would jump at the ability to do the same. For the record, I am European myself
>Not really. Europeans aren't some superior noble ascetics.
Indeed. In my town center, on the weekends, the streets are full of Teslas, luxury cars and SUVs of the well off people from the suburbs with nice houses, coming to the city for shopping and indulgence in various forms of consumerism and showing off (mostly inherited) wealth.
Europeans are just poorer and more unequally wealthy than Americans, with fewer people owing most of the wealth, not more righteous.
Re: The US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the US is now nearly 2X
#610IMHO the west as a whole will need to re-consider its metrics. Europe, not only Eurozone, lag in absolute numbers of economic activity but the life quality is not that different from the US and arguably it’s even better depending on what is important for you. An appendicitis generates more economic activity in the US but Europeans die les from it. On the other hand, Europe does lag on post soviet era tech(that’s anyt…
I was recently talking with a friend who moved to Germany and loved it. But now that he is raising a family he is planning on moving back to the states. There's definitely a quantity/quality difference. Things in Germany are just nicer . But at a certain point, the "niceness" of things doesn't matter to you much anymore when you are trying to raise a family of 4 in a 800 sq ft apartment.
If there's one thing I wouldn't want to do in the United States it would be raising a family. Seems like there is absolutely zero freedom for children there.