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The force that shapes everything around us: Parking

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Re: The force that shapes everything around us: Parking

#211

Post by sandworm101 »

davidw wrote: post #195
sandworm101 wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> infill development of existing parking lots to create mixed use neighborhoods is in reality very cheap for cities to do No. That is a radical change in needs and services. Cars don't need sewage treatment and fresh water delivery. Parking lots don't need school systems and health care. Just saying that a parking lot can be converted to houses ignores the radically different local and external needs of human reside…

Compared to the same amount of services further spread out, infill is far cheaper, and tends to generate a lot more tax revenue compared to the infrastructure needs. Here's a sort of simplified, but real-world example that uses snow clearing: https://bendyimby.com/2021/03/24/snow-and-financial-producti... Something like sewers are more complicated, but the basic equation is that you're adding things in an area that's…

>> adding things in an area that's already served by infrastructure

Unlike in video games, "adding" load to infrastructure can cost more than running new lines. Everything from pipes to power lines have finite capacities. If a city sewer system is at capacity, as many are, dropping some more people into the middle (replacing a parking lot with houses) will require possibly ripping up the old sewer/water/power lines to expand them. And expanding their up/downstream connections. That can impact far far more than the local connection, often costing much more than green-field development. Imaging how much cost to open up and expand a sewer under any Manhattan street. Compare that to digging a trench through a green field out on the outskirts of town.

Re: The force that shapes everything around us: Parking

#212

Post by xyzelement »

Parking is impactful but is ultimately shaped by human preferences that are revealed by the choices people make.

For example, you can live in NYC car-free, but many (most?) people move out to the burbs once they have a family, partially because lower density + car enables better family life.

What works well for a single-and-dating young professional, doesn't work as well for a dad. If ample parking makes family life easier, that is probably a pretty good tradeoff.

Re: The force that shapes everything around us: Parking

#213

Post by residentraspber »

kibwen wrote: post #106
elijaht wrote: post #51

I live car-free in NYC. A large appeal of NYC to me was not having to park. I don't ~mind~ driving, but I absolutely hated having to deal with finding parking when I lived in other cities. Parking generally makes me feel stressed (competition for free spots), or makes me pay (using something like SpotHero makes it easy to find a spot, but costs me). It's not even just major cities either- I'm frequently in a college…

Sold my car years ago and moved to Boston. I'll never go back to live anywhere that requires me to own a car. I bike or walk everywhere, and what makes me hopeful is that biking infrastructure in Boston (and neighboring cities like Cambridge) has improved dramatically in the years since I've been here and just keeps getting better. Google tells me that the average TCO of car ownership in the US was $10,728 in 2022. B…

I LOVE the new bike lanes on the Mass Ave bridge. Total game changer on how often I actually want to bike into Cambridge now.

I wish the other sides of the bridge were better for bikes, too, but I'm sure they're coming with the next re-paving/maintenance of those roads.

Re: The force that shapes everything around us: Parking

#214

Post by brewdad »

mikrl wrote: post #73
2023throwawayy wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Needing to download an app, and saying "you need to book in advance" are not the same thing. Just because you didn't want to deal with it and didn't do research ahead of time doesn't mean "We couldn’t even park downtown". You didn't want to, and that's fine.

You’re splitting hairs, which I can also do: There’s a giant parking lot with 10,000 spaces and 2 are free. There is ‘no parking’ unless you want to drive around for 2 hours. For enough money you could probably get a permit from the cops and a security detail and park wherever you wanted, like in a city park. There is still ‘no parking’ in parks. Within parameters that apply in the majority of cities I’ve tried to pa…

Saying there's no parking and there's no free (as in money) parking are two very different things. Parking in the downtown of one of the ten largest metro areas in the US is going to cost money. That's just how it is.

Re: The force that shapes everything around us: Parking

#215

Post by fshbbdssbbgdd »

EricDeb wrote: post #194
kibwen wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sold my car years ago and moved to Boston. I'll never go back to live anywhere that requires me to own a car. I bike or walk everywhere, and what makes me hopeful is that biking infrastructure in Boston (and neighboring cities like Cambridge) has improved dramatically in the years since I've been here and just keeps getting better. Google tells me that the average TCO of car ownership in the US was $10,728 in 2022. B…

I dislike car culture, but owning a car is not that expensive unless you own a newish one.

Yeah I paid $10k for a car 10 years ago, and I spend all-in (insurance, maintenance, gas) about $2k/year on it. Long-run, it probably depreciates by a few hundred dollars a year as well.

Re: The force that shapes everything around us: Parking

#216

Post by Sharlin »

jimbob21 wrote: post #176
nharada wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was curious how much bigger the real stadium parking was. SimCity: https://oyster.ignimgs.com/mediawiki/apis.ign.com/simcity/e/... Real Stadium: https://i.imgur.com/KwT1T53.png

I am surprised that this was surprising to people. Cars are much bigger than people, of course you'd need bigger parking lots than seating space

> of course you'd need bigger parking lots than seating space

There is a tacit assumption in your statement. Of course you don't need vast parking lots around stadiums, and there are plenty of real-world sports arenas that don't have those (some examples [1][2][3]). The parking that there is is structural, and most people simply use public transit to reach these places, which are often located in moderately densely built areas. So, allow me to restate your claim, with a different assumption:

Of course you need great mass transit connections to a stadium, how else would people reach it?

Edit: But yes, people also don't have a good intuition on how much space cars actually waste in bulk. For example, many people don't seem to realize how much space it saves on roadways if 50 people sit in a bus or or tram or train rather than in 30 or 40 cars. Indeed, any rational motorist should be enthusiastically in favor of any project that makes public transit more attractive or accessible, purely for selfish reasons!

---

[1] Nokia Arena in Tampere https://goo.gl/maps/3WmAxfA2pCXDre8p7

[2] Helsinki Olympic Stadium https://goo.gl/maps/BQhopp5kRtTrEDR79 [under renovation in the aerial imagery]

[3] Tele2 Arena in Stockholm https://goo.gl/maps/za3y6HfRvocjfZR37

Re: The force that shapes everything around us: Parking

#217

Post by 8note »

xnx wrote: post #13

Seems like parking is a side effect for people's preference for larger houses and yards. Convince people to live in smaller houses and share walls with their neighbors, and the parking situation would change dramatically.

I imagine parking space.as replacing yard space though? People want parking, or at least, regulation has decided that people want parking more than they do yards

Re: The force that shapes everything around us: Parking

#218

Post by Sharlin »

doctorpangloss wrote: post #204
nharada wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was curious how much bigger the real stadium parking was. SimCity: https://oyster.ignimgs.com/mediawiki/apis.ign.com/simcity/e/... Real Stadium: https://i.imgur.com/KwT1T53.png

It's not saying much that stadiums are weird in a way that games don't model (edited). A stadium's audience loves to drive to places, that's the purpose of the destination, to watch a thing then eat garlic fries and drink and drive home, so whatever. I like the author's politics and agree with her sentiments. But if the author of this thing thinks she can run a business on Main Street without parking, by all means, s…

That's a very North American biased view.

In fact, many studies have shown that in reasonably structured cities, pedestrians and public transit users are a more important source of income to downtown commercial services than motorists. Their individual transactions tend to be smaller, but there are more of them. But it's also vital that the city center and its neighboring areas are actually places where people live, not just visit for work and shopping. There's a quote that goes something like "Americans really like to be tourists in the city they live in".

But yes, many business owners (and the sorts of politicians they tend to vote) are irrationally attached to the idea that motorists are the ones who bring in the money, and that proposals to make cities more livable and less car-dependent would be really bad for business. I'd wager that to an extent they're just trying to come up with rational sounding post-hoc reasons for their emotional attachment to cars and driving.

Re: The force that shapes everything around us: Parking

#219

Post by staringback »

kibwen wrote: post #106
elijaht wrote: post #51

I live car-free in NYC. A large appeal of NYC to me was not having to park. I don't ~mind~ driving, but I absolutely hated having to deal with finding parking when I lived in other cities. Parking generally makes me feel stressed (competition for free spots), or makes me pay (using something like SpotHero makes it easy to find a spot, but costs me). It's not even just major cities either- I'm frequently in a college…

Sold my car years ago and moved to Boston. I'll never go back to live anywhere that requires me to own a car. I bike or walk everywhere, and what makes me hopeful is that biking infrastructure in Boston (and neighboring cities like Cambridge) has improved dramatically in the years since I've been here and just keeps getting better. Google tells me that the average TCO of car ownership in the US was $10,728 in 2022. B…

> Google tells me that the average TCO of car ownership in the US was $10,728 in 2022

Every time I hear this insane number I have a good laugh. I own 3 cars myself and my total cost of ownership is nowhere near that high combined.

Re: The force that shapes everything around us: Parking

#220

Post by coding123 »

davidw wrote: post #156
catgary wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think anti-car activists would do great to mod SimCity to have realistic parking lots.

I don't think many people are truly anti-car activists. Just that we need to redimension their absolute centrality to so many policies and budgets. I'm involved in pro-housing politics and it's just amazing how many people are like "well, ok, sure, people need a place to live and all, but let's think FIRST about where to store the automobiles. If that works out, then I guess we can build some housing". They don't say…

I think it's not just about storing the vehicles, it's also about making your life miserable in a 2 hour commute going to a 3 hour commute.

There IS more space in the united states, believe it or not.

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