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A surprisingly simple way to foil car thieves

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Re: A surprisingly simple way to foil car thieves

#391

Post by bscphil »

IanCal wrote: post #380
oxfordmale wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about a classical mechanical key? I am referring to a laser cut key, the type that can't be easily lock picked, other than in Hollywood movies. The problem is relay theft, where thief's relay the signal of your fob key inside the house to the car via a simple antenna and amplifier system. Cryptographically signing won't help. However, this can be fixed by adding a motion sensor that makes key fobs go into a slee…

This is two factor auth but when the "thing you own" is the standard case. I don't get why it's not a keypad and relay though. Sounds like a complex solution to a fairly simple problem. I might be missing something though. Edit - ah it's intended to work with many other options like controlling indicators or wipers or something - so you choose some pattern that is your password.

> it's intended to work with many other options like controlling indicators or wipers

I think you're asking exactly the right question though - how is all this not just a more complex, less secure, shittier version of a keypad that you enter a 4-6 digit code on?

Re: A surprisingly simple way to foil car thieves

#392

Post by anjc »

It's interesting to read how many comments here underestimate the sophistication and expertise of mechanics and car thieves, and, all of the poor suggestions to overcome theft. This despite the userbase being technical.

I wonder if there's a mechanics forum somewhere in which posters are confidently proposing Caesar ciphers and so on.

Re: A surprisingly simple way to foil car thieves

#393

Post by neuronerdgirl »

lasfter wrote: post #346
neuronerdgirl wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cover the two PhD students at the NIH payscales for PhD students on a standard training grant[1] ($43,894 not including benefits) and you've used up over a quarter of your budget on less than half the salary needs, completely ignoring any research costs that need to be covered on top of the much higher payscales of the professors. Plus a large number of PhD students in this kind of work make more than the states stip…

Where are you seeing $44k? The link you gave shows payscales for postdocs, and points to another page [1] showing that predoctoral trainees get $27k. Also, in my field and in my region, $27k is massive funding. I don't know anybody who makes that much, let alone $44k, and we also don't get tuition or benefits covered. Our TA/RA union is currently striking because it's essentially impossible to live off of funding alo…

I'll give you that I misread bullet 2, so the total is a little over 31k. But grants that fund salaries for predoctoral scholars don't just fund the salary itself, they also cover the additional funds listed on that page. You can't partially fund a trainee on a grant. In any case, this wildly misses the forest for the trees - 1.2 mil in grants does not cover 6 years of salary plus research costs for 2 trainees and 2 professors full stop.

Re: A surprisingly simple way to foil car thieves

#394

Post by tstrimple »

boobsbr wrote: post #341
janalsncm wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure. In theory, investors can behave as rational actors. In practice, you get all sorts of chasing the Next Big Thing because there’s too much money flowing around to too little fundamental research. So I’m ok if we spend $1.2M on research. That’s like 5 developers for one year who would otherwise be allocated by the invisible hand into effectively useless endeavors like high frequency trading or ad tech. Cut to the…

> So I’m ok if we spend $1.2M on research. I'm not. Where do I opt out of funding government grants? At least I can decide not invest in something if I don't want to risk losing money.

You can opt out here: https://www.irs.gov/individuals/international-taxpayers/expa...

Re: A surprisingly simple way to foil car thieves

#395

Post by woobar »

oxfordmale wrote: post #289
woobar wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you believe that mechanical keys were a deterrent before the introduction of the immobilizers? And if they were why did they bother with immobilizers, anti-theft alarms, and GPS trackers?

Car theft rates were lower with mechanical keys. See below UK statistics Keyless cars top the list for most stolen cars across the UK, with around 93% of all stolen vehicles in 2020 being taken without vehicle keys.

This is not statistics. What percentage of the new cars are keyless?

Here are stats for UK. Total cars stolen in UK dropped from ~300K to ~100K in the last 20 years. [1] Even though number of cars keep growing [2]

[1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/303551/motor-vehicle-the...

[2] https://www.statista.com/statistics/299972/average-age-of-ca...

Re: A surprisingly simple way to foil car thieves

#396

Post by thomastjeffery »

postmortembees wrote: post #47
gruez wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Opportunity cost of the additional travel time[1] that you have to spend because you don't have a car. [1] Yes, I'm aware of european cities where cars aren't necessary or are actually slower than public transit. That's not applicable to most of the US though.

I wonder how many instacart/uber orders I would need to have to offset the cost of a car, assuming I can bike to most of my needs. The only reason I have a car is because there are some specialized transportation needs (towing) that I cannot get from my bike. I use my bike for everything from hardware to Costco to groceries to child care to ... lots of stuff.

I have a friend whose only reasonable option to commute to/from work is uber/lyft. He spends more each month on that than I do on my car loan. He can't afford to make a downpayment for a car loan of his own, because he is spending that money on uber/lyft. This is a vicious and familiar cycle in America.

Re: A surprisingly simple way to foil car thieves

#398

Post by jjav »

pmontra wrote: post #316
brk wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is obvious in retrospect because this concept has been around for 30 years. A common killswitch mechanism that I remember being implemented in the early 90's was a system that tied into accessory devices. On my friends car you had to put the key to ACC, then turn the cruise control on and off, and then engage and disengage the parking brake before the car would start. No other obvious lights, buttons, switches, et…

My father disconnected the distributor (correct word?) and took a piece of it with him. Definitely a killswitch. That was in the 70s. Cars got more complicated around 1980.

> My father disconnected the distributor (correct word?) and took a piece of it with him.

Yes, my dad was used to removing the rotor from the distributor (small piece, easy to pop off and unless the thief just happens to have the correct model handy, the car can't run) back in the 60s (maybe he did it earlier).

I'm pretty sure some form of this has been popular for just about as long cars have had an electrical system.

Re: A surprisingly simple way to foil car thieves

#399

Post by post_break »

GeorgeTirebiter wrote: post #373

My buddy uses a big-ass knife switch on the battery + terminal, under the hood. Since you have to open the car to 'pop' the hood, the only way to steal it is to get inside somehow (slim jim, smash the window, etc), pop the hood, pop the hood safety, know which black plastic box has the knife switch, open that, close the switch, close the hood, hotwire the ignition, and, finally... drive away. Too much trouble. some o…

That works on older cars, on newer cars they will run like shit if they are constantly killed. The ecu likes to learn things, the transmission ecu, the radio, all your settings. A knife switch on the fuel pump or starter would be better.

Re: A surprisingly simple way to foil car thieves

#400

Post by mdorazio »

oxfordmale wrote: post #299
gruez wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What about a classical mechanical key? can be picked >The problem is relay theft, where thief's relay the signal of your fob key inside the house to the car via a simple antenna and amplifier system. Cryptographical signing won't help. AFAIK the attack you describe only applies to keyless entry systems (ie. you can open and start a car without having to pull your key out), which is related but not the same as an im…

Picking a laser cut key isn't trivial. Even picking a standard house lock isn't trivial, especially not in the dark. They don't clone the key, they use an antenna to amplify the signal from your key fob and then drive off. In principle you can do this by following someone, but much safer to do this at 2am at night. Similar to a one time password, the signal is only valid for a short period of time.

Bypassing the door locks is not as difficult as you think with the proper tools. See: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLy65ASXuEQ

Standard house locks don't require picking at all - you can bump them in a few seconds in any light conditions.

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