A surprisingly simple way to foil car thieves • Hacker News Board

Re: A surprisingly simple way to foil car thieves

#371

Post by oxfordmale » Mon, Jul 17, 2023, 7:22 PM UTC

scintill76 wrote: post #360

oxfordmale wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about a classical mechanical key? I am referring to a laser cut key, the type that can't be easily lock picked, other than in Hollywood movies. The problem is relay theft, where thief's relay the signal of your fob key inside the house to the car via a simple antenna and amplifier system. Cryptographically signing won't help. However, this can be fixed by adding a motion sensor that makes key fobs go into a slee…

> However, this can be fixed by adding a motion sensor that makes key fobs go into a sleep mode when they have been inactive for a minute. Now I'm wondering how hard it would be for the thieves to shake the ground outside the house enough to fool the motion sensor...

Most thieves try to be quiet to avoid detection. However, one should be open minded to new technologies, and the use of a loud jackhammer on the drive way sound like an excellent solution to this problem.

Re: A surprisingly simple way to foil car thieves

#372

Post by positron6000 » Mon, Jul 17, 2023, 7:23 PM UTC

brk wrote: post #329

borski wrote: post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dropbox wasn’t a new idea either. rsync had existed for many years.

But Dropbox made rsync more user friendly and available to people who weren't techies. The concept of a starter interrupter has been around almost as long as the automobile itself. Ways to engage and disengage that interrupter have evolved and advanced over the years. Older folks will remember cars with a keyswitch on the front fender, and then a keypad inside, and then hidden switches like I described in my OP, and…

"i'm not a 'car guy' - where can i get a simple interface for a killswitch that only needs to be installed once and can be controlled from an app?"

^ this is where the value is, which is what the $1.2m is intended to explore.

Re: A surprisingly simple way to foil car thieves

#373

Post by GeorgeTirebiter » Mon, Jul 17, 2023, 7:23 PM UTC

My buddy uses a big-ass knife switch on the battery + terminal, under the hood.

Since you have to open the car to 'pop' the hood, the only way to steal it is to get inside somehow (slim jim, smash the window, etc), pop the hood, pop the hood safety, know which black plastic box has the knife switch, open that, close the switch, close the hood, hotwire the ignition, and, finally... drive away.

Too much trouble. some other victim car will be chosen by the typical car thief.

Re: A surprisingly simple way to foil car thieves

#374

Post by hutzlibu » Mon, Jul 17, 2023, 7:23 PM UTC

rkagerer wrote: post #209

postmortembees wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Raking house locks is a) not difficult and b) not expensive. You don't need to be a professional to do that. But also, bricks through windows are equally not difficult and not expensive, though they do leave a bit more evidence. When my neighbors have been burgled, this is the preferred method of entry I've seen.

It's funny, I have the opposite problem. I have a particular door lock for which three different locksmiths have all failed to cut usable keys. The originals work fine, but the copies don't. The last set barely works, if you wiggle it around a lot and ram to get it in, but then it gets stuck in there and is nearly impossible to remove. They've tried various blanks, and I've never gotten a satisfactory explanation fro…

Yeah, I have the same problem with some old locks. Impossible to get a copy for a key, because it does not meet some modern standard.

Re: A surprisingly simple way to foil car thieves

#375

Post by idiotsecant » Mon, Jul 17, 2023, 7:24 PM UTC

Scoundreller wrote: post #197

idiotsecant wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did similar, except wired into the ignition circuit and with the control being a little cheap ebay RFID thing with the sensor on the underside of the dash. I kept a little RFID tag on my keys, chuck my keys up onto the dash when i'm ready to go and the truck is started with a pushbutton. I also put a cheater switch in the glove box in case i forgot my RFID tags. In my case it was motivated more by maintenance heada…

I guess this works if you don’t have immobilizers. In Canada they’re mandated, so the ECU is expecting some kind of digital signal from the key before turning on (but sometimes you can just shuck the rf chip inside they key and glue it in the right spot, or uncode it from the écu).

1996 ford pickups have about the simplest ignition wiring you could possibly imagine. I wouldn't even dream of doing this on anything new enough to have an immobilizer.

Re: A surprisingly simple way to foil car thieves

#376

Post by oxfordmale » Mon, Jul 17, 2023, 7:24 PM UTC

sleepybrett wrote: post #345

oxfordmale wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Picking a laser cut key isn't trivial. Even picking a standard house lock isn't trivial, especially not in the dark. They don't clone the key, they use an antenna to amplify the signal from your key fob and then drive off. In principle you can do this by following someone, but much safer to do this at 2am at night. Similar to a one time password, the signal is only valid for a short period of time.

Darkness doesn't have anything to do with anything. Once you get the tensioner and pick into the keyway you aren't using your eyes anymore, at that point it's all feel.

If you are that good a lock pick, you are better off as a locksmith. In real life the people send out to steal the car aren't the most talented and brightest, otherwise they would be running the operation safely from an office somewhere.

Re: A surprisingly simple way to foil car thieves

#377

Post by xwdv » Mon, Jul 17, 2023, 7:27 PM UTC

lasfter wrote: post #346

neuronerdgirl wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cover the two PhD students at the NIH payscales for PhD students on a standard training grant[1] ($43,894 not including benefits) and you've used up over a quarter of your budget on less than half the salary needs, completely ignoring any research costs that need to be covered on top of the much higher payscales of the professors. Plus a large number of PhD students in this kind of work make more than the states stip…

Where are you seeing $44k? The link you gave shows payscales for postdocs, and points to another page [1] showing that predoctoral trainees get $27k. Also, in my field and in my region, $27k is massive funding. I don't know anybody who makes that much, let alone $44k, and we also don't get tuition or benefits covered. Our TA/RA union is currently striking because it's essentially impossible to live off of funding alo…

This was my conclusion as well. Will wait to see what the response is here.

Re: A surprisingly simple way to foil car thieves

#378

Post by passer_byer » Mon, Jul 17, 2023, 7:27 PM UTC

pmontra wrote: post #316

brk wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is obvious in retrospect because this concept has been around for 30 years. A common killswitch mechanism that I remember being implemented in the early 90's was a system that tied into accessory devices. On my friends car you had to put the key to ACC, then turn the cruise control on and off, and then engage and disengage the parking brake before the car would start. No other obvious lights, buttons, switches, et…

My father disconnected the distributor (correct word?) and took a piece of it with him. Definitely a killswitch. That was in the 70s. Cars got more complicated around 1980.

My hack was to purchase a 2017 vehicle with a 5 speed manual transmission. I reckon 95% of would be thieves can’t easily drive it away!

Re: A surprisingly simple way to foil car thieves

#379

Post by mrguyorama » Mon, Jul 17, 2023, 7:28 PM UTC

monkeywork wrote: post #134

dharmab wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe Ford has a patent on keypad entry. Many of their vehicles have it.

I love the keypad on my F150 I seriously wish all vehicles had it.

It used to be that the PIN logic was just a simple rolling buffer and substring(ish) search, such that for a 6 button keypad, an optimized 80ish button sequence would open every single vehicle with those keypads.

Re: A surprisingly simple way to foil car thieves

#380

Post by IanCal » Mon, Jul 17, 2023, 7:29 PM UTC

oxfordmale wrote: post #103

gruez wrote: post #16

>At the end of the three-year project, the team aims to have a commercially viable prototype that can be scaled up to commercial production, first as a theft deterrent device, and potentially later as a complete vehicle entry and control system that could replace traditional keys and fobs. What's the point of this? Modern cars already have engines that are cryptographically tied to keys[1]. They're not perfect, but i…

What about a classical mechanical key? I am referring to a laser cut key, the type that can't be easily lock picked, other than in Hollywood movies. The problem is relay theft, where thief's relay the signal of your fob key inside the house to the car via a simple antenna and amplifier system. Cryptographically signing won't help. However, this can be fixed by adding a motion sensor that makes key fobs go into a slee…

This is two factor auth but when the "thing you own" is the standard case.

I don't get why it's not a keypad and relay though. Sounds like a complex solution to a fairly simple problem. I might be missing something though.

Edit - ah it's intended to work with many other options like controlling indicators or wipers or something - so you choose some pattern that is your password.