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Dusk OS: 32-bit Forth OS. Useful during first stage of civilizational collapse

duskos.org

121–130 of 152 posts

Re: Dusk OS: 32-bit Forth OS. Useful during first stage of civilizational collapse

#121
post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Economic war, if it were to become full-blown, could result in locally constrained availability of microchips while civilizations still go on, no? Pandemic x5 or so. What if India and China decide to trade some nukes? It's not likely, but it's a possible scenario.

It's a possibility. But in that case an all out effort to recreate a competition free fab in the west would be able to put something usable together in a few years. I don't see that as a scenario where you'd need to go for scavenged hardware, any old cellphone has enough power to deal with factory automation at that level and well beyond it. We know exactly what to build and how to tie it all together, the reason we…

> But then there is still Korea and possibly Japan.

If china becomes that aggressive that they are in open war with Taiwan, Korea and Japan won't be an option either.

Re: Dusk OS: 32-bit Forth OS. Useful during first stage of civilizational collapse

#123
post #57

Strange premise but cool project. I think during a civilizational collapse and after there will be plenty of computers we could run plain old Linux and windows on.

The list of supported devices includes Apple IIe and Sega Master System, which are positively rare artifacts today compared to the glut of smartphones, laptops, smartwatches and TVs. The simple old stuff is hard to come by compared to the integrated modern stuff. To put it in perspective, a rough estimate is that there were 20 million Sega Master Systems ever sold worldwide, compared to 20 billion (and counting) smar…

even if those machines are all you come across, they already have operating systems available for them, with corresponding software that's already been ported. I have a PS2 with a BlackRhino Linux LiveDVD mostly because it's interesting, but I don't anticipate ever having to use it for anything important.

Re: Dusk OS: 32-bit Forth OS. Useful during first stage of civilizational collapse

#124
post #4

The rationale is silly, but the project itself looks interesting. No need to tie it in to civilization collapse though, an odd marketing angle really.

Yeah, this is an interesting project, but the author's belief that society is going to completely collapse by 2030 is... odd.

saying society will collapse by 2030 is more reasonable than saying people will run a niche operating system after it does. Societal collapse looks different to different people but I'd be surprised if the western world hasn't radically declined by 2050.

Re: Dusk OS: 32-bit Forth OS. Useful during first stage of civilizational collapse

#125

These kind of self-contained start-from-scratch projects are comforting, and can be intellectually interesting, but it would make much more practical sense to me to spec out some simple hardware than can run linux, or a porting toolkit to make it easier to run on phones etc.

The problem is that even if you have a perfectly preserved box of modern cell phones, they're intentionally not really hacker friendly.

Half the time, you have a locked bootloader, and even if you don't, you probably need a bigger machine to stage and load new software. Even when you're done, you're stuck with a form-factor that's of limited alternate utility. Phones make a decent media player or ereader, but they're not really useful for many use cases. I'd expect, once you've got a few devices up and capable of preserving, say, human knowledge as defined by Wikipedia, you start looking for devices that are more GPIOs and less screen-and-storage. Access to something Arduino-esque could be a big force multiplier, because it allows process automation with relatively low manufacturing skill. Even something like an old mechanical clothes washer timer-- open and close a few relays over time, maybe respond to a few sense switches for emergency stop if the tub leaks-- requires a fairly high degree of mechanical tolerances to get right, or you could implement the same functionality in a few dozen lines of code for an Arduino-esque device, as long as you have the GPIOs. Phones are hardly amenable to that-- you try soldering a big relay to a tiny BGA processor pin.

Some of the documentation seems also focused around the idea of salvage at the component level. This may be a more feasible option too-- when you start to look beyond "computer/phone devices", there are a lot of embedded Z80s and EEPROMs that you could desolder and press into service, and they represent a lot more of a consistent baseline than 400 chips that are all theoretically ARM family, but have wildly different memory maps, peripherals, and varying instruction sets.

Re: Dusk OS: 32-bit Forth OS. Useful during first stage of civilizational collapse

#126

After civilizational collapse you won't need computers, you'll need bows, arrows and basic agricultural tools that don't require motors. Forget about electricity or anything requiring it, that will be the least of your problems. Assuming there is still sunlight enough to keep photosynthesis running. If not, you may want to find some place high. And if you are going to do something like this then you really should mak…

Are we currently doing all we can to prevent collapse? It seems like they vaguely try to stop pollution and WW3, but what about the Carrington event? And why does it seem like individuals are far more interesting in preparing for collapse than preventing it?

It really feels like people would rather live in 1800 than continue with industrial society, even if the environmental toll and body count was far higher than what future tech could achieve.

Re: Dusk OS: 32-bit Forth OS. Useful during first stage of civilizational collapse

#127
post #125

These kind of self-contained start-from-scratch projects are comforting, and can be intellectually interesting, but it would make much more practical sense to me to spec out some simple hardware than can run linux, or a porting toolkit to make it easier to run on phones etc.

The problem is that even if you have a perfectly preserved box of modern cell phones, they're intentionally not really hacker friendly. Half the time, you have a locked bootloader, and even if you don't, you probably need a bigger machine to stage and load new software. Even when you're done, you're stuck with a form-factor that's of limited alternate utility. Phones make a decent media player or ereader, but they're…

Right it should be mandatory for phone makers to release their linux changes/drivers etc when they retire devices from sale.

Re: Dusk OS: 32-bit Forth OS. Useful during first stage of civilizational collapse

#128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean we already see the issues with international supply chains failing during covid, and we haven’t even really seen the significant impacts from climate change. Yeah, most people on HN aren’t going to really need this in the next 5-10 years as we’re predominantly in locations that will be maintained the longest. What about people in countries that already barely have functioning supply chains? This could be immed…

"This could be immediately useful for them." That's the thing: there are already many hackers and makers working on all kinds of ways to reuse old electronic. If they cannot really use this now - who can after a collaps?

Sorry, I’m not following. Are you saying they are able to use this now? Or that it can’t be used now?

Re: Dusk OS: 32-bit Forth OS. Useful during first stage of civilizational collapse

#129
> "The first one is when the global supply chain is broken and the second one is when, in a particular community, the last modern computer dies."

Can someone please explain to me how modern computers will die? I don't see how solid state electronics will break, will they eventually rust in 100 years or something?

Re: Dusk OS: 32-bit Forth OS. Useful during first stage of civilizational collapse

#130
post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd understand if we were dedicating substantial resources to prepping... but we're not. The number of people and amount of treasure spent on it is a rounding error. Let other people have their hobbies.

It's pretty dangerous when those that are in a position to make a difference are also able to position themselves in such a way that they won't go down with the ship if they don't.

That's getting into Illuminati territory.

Thiel is rich and powerful, but he isn't that rich and powerful. There are more than enough counterbalancing forces.

And it starts to be way too thought policy (for me) deciding "You can't be rich and worry about civilization collapsing."

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