S.F. says incidents by Cruise, Waymo driverless taxis are ‘skyrocketing.’ • Hacker News Board

Re: S.F. says incidents by Cruise, Waymo driverless taxis are ‘skyrocketing.’

#551

Post by parshimers » Sat, Jul 15, 2023, 7:26 AM UTC

aluminum96 wrote: post #433

dekhn wrote: post #115

"Skyrocket" is a word people use when they don't have the data to support their claim, but want to make it sound as extreme as possible. When I hear "skyrocket" I think "several orders of magnitude in a very short time". But the source of the quote with skyrocket, basically admits that they didn't have any quantitative evidence to support a massive change in incidents. Remember: reality is banal. Things are far bette…

Waymo and Cruise won't actually release comprehensive data. So anecdotes are all we have to go by... and they don't look particularly good. These are egregious driving mistakes that a human driver would almost never make. - https://twitter.com/desertflyer/status/1677464706251128832 - https://twitter.com/flrent/status/1677483882109882368 Everyone needs to experience these things for themselves before unleashing them o…

That’s really awful. These kind of incidents need to be investigated. Whatever situation caused the car to just run into the path of a pedestrian in a crosswalk can’t be allowed.

Re: S.F. says incidents by Cruise, Waymo driverless taxis are ‘skyrocketing.’

#552

Post by ljf » Sat, Jul 15, 2023, 7:27 AM UTC

Aurornis wrote: post #234

cashsterling wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know why the other reply to this post got downvoted to hell. THe person has a point. Fully autonomous cars are cool... don't get me wrong. But electric cars and autonomous electric/gas cars are probably not the right solution to our person transport needs. using energy to move a 4000 lb vehicle to transport one or two 200 lb humans is not energy-efficient... most of the energy is spent just moving the vehicle…

> A 60lb e-bike can also transport a 200 lb person whilst using far less resources (both to make the vehicle and to operate it) and space. E-bikes are great for the situations, climates, and people who can use them. E-bikes are not a substitute for the majority of people’s transportation needs. I think the young, healthy people who live in moderate climates with good weather, short commutes, and little need to haul a…

My father is 83 and struggles to walk more an a mile these days due to a leg injury and the need for knee replacements.

But on his electric three wheeled bicycle, he covers a few miles each day. No matter the weather he heads out in the morning and buys a paper, milk and bread. Mid day he'll do a supermarket run for my mother, and in the afternoon they will take a 'walk' together down to the sea, where she will walk and he will cycle slowly along side her.

In the rain he wears a raincoat. At the back of the trike he has a huge basket that can carry their whole weekly shop, and in the front he has one that he throws his bag in.

I'll admit we are lucky to live in a town that is walkable and the distances he covers are mot vast on even UK averages, but electric bikes and tricycles are suitable for all sorts of people and covering all sorts of uses. The trike could not replace their car entirely, but it means they can go weeks without using it.

Re: S.F. says incidents by Cruise, Waymo driverless taxis are ‘skyrocketing.’

#553

Post by divan » Sat, Jul 15, 2023, 7:32 AM UTC

aluminum96 wrote: post #433

dekhn wrote: post #115

"Skyrocket" is a word people use when they don't have the data to support their claim, but want to make it sound as extreme as possible. When I hear "skyrocket" I think "several orders of magnitude in a very short time". But the source of the quote with skyrocket, basically admits that they didn't have any quantitative evidence to support a massive change in incidents. Remember: reality is banal. Things are far bette…

Waymo and Cruise won't actually release comprehensive data. So anecdotes are all we have to go by... and they don't look particularly good. These are egregious driving mistakes that a human driver would almost never make. - https://twitter.com/desertflyer/status/1677464706251128832 - https://twitter.com/flrent/status/1677483882109882368 Everyone needs to experience these things for themselves before unleashing them o…

In some countries that's the default mode of interaction between human drivers and human pedestrians.

Re: S.F. says incidents by Cruise, Waymo driverless taxis are ‘skyrocketing.’

#554

Post by Roark66 » Sat, Jul 15, 2023, 7:33 AM UTC

I'm definitely a skeptic when it comes to putting an AI in charge with no manual override of a 3 ton vehicle with humans on board, but having said that, this article didn't provide any meaningful information if these "incidents" per mile driven are higher compared with human drivers? They say they saw "huge increase in incidents". Perhaps there was a "huge" increase in miles driven by these cars?

It is possible likely hood of such incidents per car/mile increased due to a software update or tweaking of some parameters. I heard people often complain self driving cars drive too cautiously. Try to address this, it is pretty certain there will be more incidents. But is it what happened here? We have no idea.

In general I feel the quality of journalist output diminishes in time, or perhaps it was always horrible? How can one do research, spend time talking to people, write an article and don't provide basic numbers?

Re: S.F. says incidents by Cruise, Waymo driverless taxis are ‘skyrocketing.’

#555

Post by Tade0 » Sat, Jul 15, 2023, 7:37 AM UTC

cashsterling wrote: post #206

throwaway9274 wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely right. To situate in terms of recent events, there have been three stages of trying to delay / influence the California CPUC robotaxi expansion approval vote: 1. Tried a politician scare campaign. Failed because it was too transparent it was an attempted distraction from their terrible public safety record. 2. Tried coning and disabling the vehicles. Failed because it was too transparently astroturfed, leg…

I don't know why the other reply to this post got downvoted to hell. THe person has a point. Fully autonomous cars are cool... don't get me wrong. But electric cars and autonomous electric/gas cars are probably not the right solution to our person transport needs. using energy to move a 4000 lb vehicle to transport one or two 200 lb humans is not energy-efficient... most of the energy is spent just moving the vehicle…

Efficiency is not everything. In the Netherlands for a third year in a row there are more fatalities among cyclists than car passengers:

https://www.cbs.nl/en-gb/news/2023/16/more-traffic-deaths-in...

More than half of those deaths are people over the age of 75.

Close to 85% - the 50+ cohort(so including the previously mentioned group).

The Netherlands treats road safety seriously and spent decades prioritizing bicycles, yet this is happening.

Re: S.F. says incidents by Cruise, Waymo driverless taxis are ‘skyrocketing.’

#556

Post by Tade0 » Sat, Jul 15, 2023, 7:42 AM UTC

dekhn wrote: post #115

"Skyrocket" is a word people use when they don't have the data to support their claim, but want to make it sound as extreme as possible. When I hear "skyrocket" I think "several orders of magnitude in a very short time". But the source of the quote with skyrocket, basically admits that they didn't have any quantitative evidence to support a massive change in incidents. Remember: reality is banal. Things are far bette…

To me the term now, after plenty of articles overusing it, means "~40% increase, but the previous number was small to begin with".

Re: S.F. says incidents by Cruise, Waymo driverless taxis are ‘skyrocketing.’

#557

Post by yayitswei » Sat, Jul 15, 2023, 7:42 AM UTC

Tade0 wrote: post #555

cashsterling wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know why the other reply to this post got downvoted to hell. THe person has a point. Fully autonomous cars are cool... don't get me wrong. But electric cars and autonomous electric/gas cars are probably not the right solution to our person transport needs. using energy to move a 4000 lb vehicle to transport one or two 200 lb humans is not energy-efficient... most of the energy is spent just moving the vehicle…

Efficiency is not everything. In the Netherlands for a third year in a row there are more fatalities among cyclists than car passengers: https://www.cbs.nl/en-gb/news/2023/16/more-traffic-deaths-in... More than half of those deaths are people over the age of 75. Close to 85% - the 50+ cohort(so including the previously mentioned group). The Netherlands treats road safety seriously and spent decades prioritizing bicyc…

This could be expected if the ratio of bikes to cars is much higher than in other places.

Re: S.F. says incidents by Cruise, Waymo driverless taxis are ‘skyrocketing.’

#558

Post by Perseids » Sat, Jul 15, 2023, 7:46 AM UTC

TaylorAlexander wrote: post #378

Aurornis wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A 60lb e-bike can also transport a 200 lb person whilst using far less resources (both to make the vehicle and to operate it) and space. E-bikes are great for the situations, climates, and people who can use them. E-bikes are not a substitute for the majority of people’s transportation needs. I think the young, healthy people who live in moderate climates with good weather, short commutes, and little need to haul a…

> I think the young, healthy people who live in moderate climates with good weather, short commutes, and little need to haul anything The old dutch people riding their bakfietsen around in the snow show this is much more a cultural thing than a hard fact of weather and human nature - and culture can change as the need arises. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQhzEnWCgHA As far as short commutes - that's as much a fact…

At everyone who can't imagine how life without a car could be possible: Watch this video! (The video linked in my parent post.) It really captures how different transportation and everyday life can be.

As a whole, reading this biking thread is an amazing example in failure to understand how a lot of small lifestyle decision lock you in a particular mode of living. I know that much of northern America is not really bike friendly. But, damn, looking at it from a German urban perspective, it does not seem like you were even trying. (And I can't blame you for that because you were missing the role models to follow.)

Half of my friends don't own a car, many of them have children. They started out by not ever having a car in the first place. We chose the cities we live in, the jobs we work for, the daycare facilities we commute our children to, all with the implicit assumption that owning a car is not desirable.

A second factor that is really underappreciated is habit. After about one and a half years of commuting to work by e-bike in various tolerable weather situations, I encountered the first really harsh road conditions. Not just snowy, but icy ground everywhere (which was definitely not fun for cars either). But because I was so used to dealing with bike challenges by then, overcoming yet another (though harder) bike challenge was so much more comfortable to me than working out the alternatives. Same with the day I was somewhat sick and there was intense, icy rain. (Nowadays I would have the decency to stay home when being sick, even though they "need" me at work).

So basically the answer to "How could biking ever work?" is "We make it work" – like with everything in life. And in the right environments, the upsides are enormous.

Re: S.F. says incidents by Cruise, Waymo driverless taxis are ‘skyrocketing.’

#559

Post by jahnu » Sat, Jul 15, 2023, 8:22 AM UTC

koheripbal wrote: post #529

runeb wrote: post #503

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I moved here from Europe and I am absolutely shocked at how reckless the drivers are. In the old country I think I saw a car run a red light once in 20 years of driving. Here is seems I see it every other day.

"Europe" is very vague when it comes to driving. Italy and Greece and all of eastern Europe have some of the worse (aggressive) driving on earth.

Anecdote: I drive in Italy at least once a year and never found it particularly bad or aggressive. I’ve driven in Greece too and also found it normal.

Data: Both are substantially safer than the US

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic...

Re: S.F. says incidents by Cruise, Waymo driverless taxis are ‘skyrocketing.’

#560

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Jul 15, 2023, 8:30 AM UTC

xyzzyz wrote: post #376

nerdbert wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They work for the majority of people of all ages who live in cities where the infrastructure has been properly built to accommodate bikes. Most people rarely need to haul anything and can use carshare when they do. I've demoed a multistory house down to the bricks and re-built it from the outside in without a car. Hired someone to haul off a dumpster several times. For major materials deliveries, like beams or window…

I have been driving my children to daycare for past 3 years. I will be driving my children to daycare for at least 3 more years. Bicycle is not a viable replacement for this use case, sorry. My situation is far from unique, raising children is quite universal human experience.

[deleted]