Could an industrial civilization have predated humans on Earth? • Hacker News Board

Re: Could an industrial civilization have predated humans on Earth?

#171

Post by lacrimacida » Sat, Jul 15, 2023, 6:28 AM UTC

andsoitis wrote: post #165

radu_floricica wrote: post #162

Just for fun, a possibility is Antarctica. Cold is a straightforward problem to solve - make a fire, throw a fur or a blanket on you. Even the most primitive emerging civilizations ca thrive in cold climates. Heat on the other hand is a lot more complex to solve. You need fully industrial civilization to have air conditioning, and we still don't have anything portable enough. Even today's solution to 40C+ is "drink a…

> So if you want a large scale industrial civilization that got to Mars but didn't leave large traces, a possibility is that they evolved at a time when Antarctica was friendly (for them), and the rest of the world was above their threshold temperature. Are you arguing that the chances of a large-scale Antarctic industrial civilization that reached Mars is higher than one that reached South America, Southern Africa,…

In this hypotherical event they possibly spread there too before their complete demise. But I guess we’d have found their traces by now…

Re: Could an industrial civilization have predated humans on Earth?

#172

Post by Simon_O_Rourke » Sat, Jul 15, 2023, 6:30 AM UTC

DannyB2 wrote: post #4

If there were an industrial civilization here before us (modern humans) then it would be astonishing that in all of the fossils we have discovered, we've never yet discovered a single ancient nut, bolt, screwdriver, wrench, etc. Not one single wire or cast metal part. As per the article, that civilization would have to predate all of the vast history of evolution that we know of. Wouldn't some higher life forms from…

Lets not forget all their detritus and trash too - as well as any industrial waste... that stuff would have shown up long long ago if it in fact existed.

Re: Could an industrial civilization have predated humans on Earth?

#173

Post by nologic01 » Sat, Jul 15, 2023, 6:36 AM UTC

Industrial civilization is today synonymous with large scale environmental transformation. But it took only like a couple of centuries to realise that this process cannot be limitless and need to be converted into a sustainable, circular/renewable pattern for advanced civilization to last not just for a few more decades but hopefully, for eternity.

Now, it is conceivable (and kinda scary) to contemplate that earlier versions of humans developed a sustainability consciousness much earlier, before actually engaging industrial level terraforming.

The result would have been very limited tangible environmental impact, possibly hard to identify today.

Re: Could an industrial civilization have predated humans on Earth?

#174

Post by Zardoz84 » Sat, Jul 15, 2023, 6:50 AM UTC

radu_floricica wrote: post #162

Just for fun, a possibility is Antarctica. Cold is a straightforward problem to solve - make a fire, throw a fur or a blanket on you. Even the most primitive emerging civilizations ca thrive in cold climates. Heat on the other hand is a lot more complex to solve. You need fully industrial civilization to have air conditioning, and we still don't have anything portable enough. Even today's solution to 40C+ is "drink a…

You know that there were various civilisations in hot climates long before the industrial revolution: Aztecs, Maya, Egypt, Indus Valley, Mesopotamia, Mali Empire and many others in Africa, America, south Asia, etc...

Re: Could an industrial civilization have predated humans on Earth?

#175

Post by ElFitz » Sat, Jul 15, 2023, 7:08 AM UTC

DannyB2 wrote: post #4

If there were an industrial civilization here before us (modern humans) then it would be astonishing that in all of the fossils we have discovered, we've never yet discovered a single ancient nut, bolt, screwdriver, wrench, etc. Not one single wire or cast metal part. As per the article, that civilization would have to predate all of the vast history of evolution that we know of. Wouldn't some higher life forms from…

I recall someone asking on World Building StackExchange what aliens could find in a few tens of millions of years or so if the human race were to disappear today [0].

The answer was "not much", aside from discrepancies in metals distribution, with intriguing concentrations of iron oxyde, nuclear waste, or gold.

I am aware it certainly isn’t the most scientific or authoritative of sources, but they made interesting points.

[0]: https://worldbuilding.stackexchange.com/questions/117267/hum...

Re: Could an industrial civilization have predated humans on Earth?

#176

Post by 8bitsrule » Sat, Jul 15, 2023, 7:14 AM UTC

Only recently there is growing evidence that there are ancient artifacts made with precisions/symmetry/accuracy that could only have been approached in the last 50 years.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAyQQRNoQaE

That doesn't explain what happened to the tools, but that might be attributable to rust, death of small numbers of experts by war/famine/cataclysm/disease, and widespread recycling of rare metals and objects. OOP artifact-finders have traditionally been mocked into silence. It was 50 years before Antikythera got serious study, 50 more before it got close attention.

Re: Could an industrial civilization have predated humans on Earth?

#177

Post by tetris11 » Sat, Jul 15, 2023, 7:14 AM UTC

BuyMyBitcoins wrote: post #18

DannyB2 wrote: post #4

If there were an industrial civilization here before us (modern humans) then it would be astonishing that in all of the fossils we have discovered, we've never yet discovered a single ancient nut, bolt, screwdriver, wrench, etc. Not one single wire or cast metal part. As per the article, that civilization would have to predate all of the vast history of evolution that we know of. Wouldn't some higher life forms from…

I figure that any industrialized civilization would have left indirect evidence of itself by mucking up the fossil record with introduced species. We intentionally and unintentionally introduce plants and animals far outside their natural range. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbian_exchange You would see some species inexplicably take on a worldwide distribution, or see species suddenly turn up on far away landm…

> You would see some species inexplicably take on a worldwide distribution

Im reaching here, but: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat_gap

Re: Could an industrial civilization have predated humans on Earth?

#178

Post by swores » Sat, Jul 15, 2023, 7:17 AM UTC

andsoitis wrote: post #168

hooande wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This assumes that their technology would be similar to ours. They could have used biological mechanical parts, made from plant or animal material. They could have had radically different theories of mechanics or construction that better fit the state of the planet at their time. In general the statement "They couldn't have been civilized because they aren't exactly like us" limits what we look for and how we look for…

> biological mechanical parts What’s that?

A wooden cog, a chain made not from metal but from plant fibres, etc etc.

Re: Could an industrial civilization have predated humans on Earth?

#179

Post by jl6 » Sat, Jul 15, 2023, 7:21 AM UTC

All the possibilities seem extremely unlikely, but I’ll add one more just for fun:

We currently equate “advanced civilization” with “large scale”. But what if there was a small-scale advanced civilization? Small enough to evade detection using the crude geological tools at our disposal.

Imagine a species that was both intelligent (like humans) and immortal (like jellyfish). With unbounded lifespans, they could do work that would take millions of humans - just over a much longer period of time. With no urgent need to reproduce, their population could stay small. Perhaps with long life comes enough accumulated wisdom to exercise restraint. They might even marvel at how a mortal species could ever achieve civilization when knowledge has to be re-learned by every generation.

Over millions of years of slow civilization they might have achieved great sophistication and advanced technology, concentrated in one small region that we either haven’t found yet, or which has been subsumed beneath ocean or tectonic plate.

Perhaps a changing climate forced them to leave Earth, or to hibernate somewhere, peeking out every few million years to see if the conditions are right for their return.

Re: Could an industrial civilization have predated humans on Earth?

#180

Post by defrost » Sat, Jul 15, 2023, 7:22 AM UTC

ElFitz wrote: post #175

DannyB2 wrote: post #4

If there were an industrial civilization here before us (modern humans) then it would be astonishing that in all of the fossils we have discovered, we've never yet discovered a single ancient nut, bolt, screwdriver, wrench, etc. Not one single wire or cast metal part. As per the article, that civilization would have to predate all of the vast history of evolution that we know of. Wouldn't some higher life forms from…

I recall someone asking on World Building StackExchange what aliens could find in a few tens of millions of years or so if the human race were to disappear today [0]. The answer was "not much", aside from discrepancies in metals distribution, with intriguing concentrations of iron oxyde, nuclear waste, or gold. I am aware it certainly isn’t the most scientific or authoritative of sources, but they made interesting po…

As of last Tuesday, the mark of human indistrial and technology activity on Earth is officially marked in the geological layer:

Welcome to the Anthropocene, Earth's new chapter (phys.org)

https://phys.org/news/2023-07-anthropocene-earth-chapter.htm...

    Since 2009, a cloistered band of hard-rock geologists and other scientists have toiled on a mission of great consequence.

    On Tuesday they will deliver the last of their findings—the location of ground-zero for the Anthropocene, the proposed geological epoch borne of humanity's outsized impact on the planet.

How the weight of the world fell on one geologist's shoulders

https://phys.org/news/2023-07-weight-world-fell-geologist-sh...

    Zalasiewicz pointed to an "embarrassment of riches" of evidence locked in ice cores, sediment and coral skeletons: microplastics, forever chemicals, traces of invasive species, greenhouse gases, and the fallout from nuclear bombs.

Proof humans reshaped the world? Chickens

https://phys.org/news/2023-07-proof-humans-reshaped-world-ch...

    When aliens or our distant progeny sift through layers of sediment 500,000 years from now to decode the Earth's past, they will find unusual evidence of the abrupt change that upended life half-a-million years earlier: chicken bones.

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