Could an industrial civilization have predated humans on Earth? • Hacker News Board

Re: Could an industrial civilization have predated humans on Earth?

#21

Post by topspin » Fri, Jul 14, 2023, 9:25 PM UTC

SubiculumCode wrote: post #7

DannyB2 wrote: post #4

If there were an industrial civilization here before us (modern humans) then it would be astonishing that in all of the fossils we have discovered, we've never yet discovered a single ancient nut, bolt, screwdriver, wrench, etc. Not one single wire or cast metal part. As per the article, that civilization would have to predate all of the vast history of evolution that we know of. Wouldn't some higher life forms from…

The article indicated that surface turnover could have removed that evidence.

And yet we have 3.4 billion year old cyanobacteria fossils.

Re: Could an industrial civilization have predated humans on Earth?

#22

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Jul 14, 2023, 9:30 PM UTC

jboogey wrote: post #11

DannyB2 wrote: post #4

If there were an industrial civilization here before us (modern humans) then it would be astonishing that in all of the fossils we have discovered, we've never yet discovered a single ancient nut, bolt, screwdriver, wrench, etc. Not one single wire or cast metal part. As per the article, that civilization would have to predate all of the vast history of evolution that we know of. Wouldn't some higher life forms from…

A great Atlantic article explaining how current human civilzation might appear in a fossil record in the distant future https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2019/08/arroganc...

[deleted]

Re: Could an industrial civilization have predated humans on Earth?

#23

Post by rationalist » Fri, Jul 14, 2023, 9:31 PM UTC

StackOverlord wrote: post #20

Evidence for a Large Anomalous Nuclear Explosions in Mars Past J.E. Brandenburg https://www.hou.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2015/eposter/2660.pdf

That was interesting until the last slide which had pictures of "objects" imaged on mars. At least one of those images has been debunked (random elevations creating coincidentally-interesting shadows).

If that slide was a joke, they should have made it obvious for those looking at the slides without context of a presentation.

Re: Could an industrial civilization have predated humans on Earth?

#24

Post by lumost » Fri, Jul 14, 2023, 9:41 PM UTC

tarikjn wrote: post #14

DannyB2 wrote: post #4

If there were an industrial civilization here before us (modern humans) then it would be astonishing that in all of the fossils we have discovered, we've never yet discovered a single ancient nut, bolt, screwdriver, wrench, etc. Not one single wire or cast metal part. As per the article, that civilization would have to predate all of the vast history of evolution that we know of. Wouldn't some higher life forms from…

Not pre-human but challenging the understood modern human timeline of industrialisation — We have not found the tools, but we may have found the products; in the form of stone-based vases that archeologists attribute to the Early Egyptian Period but are believed to be from much earlier, and would have required tools that have not been discovered yet. The channel UnchartedX make a compelling argument about this hypoth…

Pre-history is tough. Outside of written accounts and a few major cities cited in particular environments - there isn’t a lot of evidence about what humans were doing for 100k years before the Roman/Chinese empires formed. Even Egyptian history is pretty spotty.

We know there were civilizations in North America such as the Mississippi River valley mound builders - but our knowledge tops out at “they existed”. It would not surprise me if agrarian civilization rose and fell multiple times due to climate change.

Re: Could an industrial civilization have predated humans on Earth?

#25

Post by naasking » Fri, Jul 14, 2023, 9:50 PM UTC

BuyMyBitcoins wrote: post #18

DannyB2 wrote: post #4

If there were an industrial civilization here before us (modern humans) then it would be astonishing that in all of the fossils we have discovered, we've never yet discovered a single ancient nut, bolt, screwdriver, wrench, etc. Not one single wire or cast metal part. As per the article, that civilization would have to predate all of the vast history of evolution that we know of. Wouldn't some higher life forms from…

I figure that any industrialized civilization would have left indirect evidence of itself by mucking up the fossil record with introduced species. We intentionally and unintentionally introduce plants and animals far outside their natural range. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbian_exchange You would see some species inexplicably take on a worldwide distribution, or see species suddenly turn up on far away landm…

How many introduced species are there as a percentage of all existing species? This seems like an important number to calculate the probability that we might have missed such an introduced species given the fossil record we have.

It could also be that introduced species are less likely to be found in the fossil record for whatever reason.

Then again, maybe we have found such a thing but haven't recognized it for what it is due to missing context.

Re: Could an industrial civilization have predated humans on Earth?

#26

Post by montagg » Fri, Jul 14, 2023, 9:53 PM UTC

leafmeal wrote: post #12

Obviously this doesn't apply when speaking on the scale of millions of years, but I remember reading that there may not be enough easily accessible energy sources (ie fossil fuels) left to jump start another industrial civilization if our current one where to collapse.

Well, maybe in another 65 million years, whatever's around will just use us and the rest of this era's biomass as crude oil in the next cycle.

Re: Could an industrial civilization have predated humans on Earth?

#27

Post by SubiculumCode » Fri, Jul 14, 2023, 9:53 PM UTC

BuyMyBitcoins wrote: post #18

DannyB2 wrote: post #4

If there were an industrial civilization here before us (modern humans) then it would be astonishing that in all of the fossils we have discovered, we've never yet discovered a single ancient nut, bolt, screwdriver, wrench, etc. Not one single wire or cast metal part. As per the article, that civilization would have to predate all of the vast history of evolution that we know of. Wouldn't some higher life forms from…

I figure that any industrialized civilization would have left indirect evidence of itself by mucking up the fossil record with introduced species. We intentionally and unintentionally introduce plants and animals far outside their natural range. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbian_exchange You would see some species inexplicably take on a worldwide distribution, or see species suddenly turn up on far away landm…

Interesting thought. However, one of the ideas that the article brings up is the extreme undersampling problem of fossil records. Its conceivable that a 300 year blip->catastrophe would be missed entirely in the fossil record.

Re: Could an industrial civilization have predated humans on Earth?

#28

Post by newZWhoDis » Fri, Jul 14, 2023, 10:01 PM UTC

topspin wrote: post #21

SubiculumCode wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article indicated that surface turnover could have removed that evidence.

And yet we have 3.4 billion year old cyanobacteria fossils.

Various sci-fi has explored this idea, for example Mass Effect, but “Reaper” species could explain that.

Re: Could an industrial civilization have predated humans on Earth?

#29

Post by getmeinrn » Fri, Jul 14, 2023, 10:10 PM UTC

DannyB2 wrote: post #4

If there were an industrial civilization here before us (modern humans) then it would be astonishing that in all of the fossils we have discovered, we've never yet discovered a single ancient nut, bolt, screwdriver, wrench, etc. Not one single wire or cast metal part. As per the article, that civilization would have to predate all of the vast history of evolution that we know of. Wouldn't some higher life forms from…

Random thought, but if we extrapolate the path we're on in terms of biodegradability and sustainability, it's not ridiculous to assume that a very advanced version of us would have developed the technology and legislation to ensure that all products biodegrade safely within X years.

Re: Could an industrial civilization have predated humans on Earth?

#30

Post by blueflow » Fri, Jul 14, 2023, 10:11 PM UTC

barelysapient wrote: post #16

DannyB2 wrote: post #4

If there were an industrial civilization here before us (modern humans) then it would be astonishing that in all of the fossils we have discovered, we've never yet discovered a single ancient nut, bolt, screwdriver, wrench, etc. Not one single wire or cast metal part. As per the article, that civilization would have to predate all of the vast history of evolution that we know of. Wouldn't some higher life forms from…

I like to wonder what undiscovered fossils exist below the oceans that cover 70 percent of our planet.

Look up about continental vs ocean crust, ocean crust is younger and has a shorter lifetime. You have better chances finding maritime fossils on land.