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Guam: The America that Americans forget

nytimes.com

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Re: Guam: The America that Americans forget

#231

Post by leobabauta »

YellOh wrote: post #230
leobabauta wrote: post #218

I'm from Guam, and half Chamoru. Most of the comments in this thread show the ignorance that this article is pointing out — Americans don't understand the situation in Guam, because they've never had to really pay attention. Guam is a U.S. colony that has benefitted from the U.S., but has also been overrun by Americans and people from Asia, so that Chamorus are now a minority on the island. We've long wanted to have…

I have no particular opinion on Guam or its governance, but if Chamorus are a minority of the people living there (& a minority of the people born there?) it feels kind of unfair for them to unilaterally make major decisions and remove the majority group from the area. Ex. obviously what American settlers did to mainland Natives was heinous and should not have happened, but it's less clear that Natives of the current…

Guam is the homeland of the Chamorus, and it was taken from us by the Americans. For them to say they should vote on what should be done with it seems more unfair. We're a minority because of American action, not by choice.

Re: Guam: The America that Americans forget

#232

Post by Aerbil313 »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #103
Aerbil313 wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> those who feel limited by the island and its infrastructure (no Target, no Starbucks, etc.) I hate those people. I live in a city of 1.5 million (there's everything here), and it's a constant background radiation talking point for a significant number of my highschool friends: how unfortunate they are that they don't live in the nearby city of 15 million. IME this constant moping has everything to do with the amoun…

There is quite a bit of difference between the inconvenience of not having a Target that gets frequent shipments of a wide variety of goods which help ease daily life, and not having the amenities of a 15M person city versus a 1.5M person city. My biggest pain point of remote island life is not having access to a variety of affordable dairy foods.

I understand. That's why I wrote "(there's everything here)". To clarify, I don't like those people because of their thankless and complaining attidude to the life.

Re: Guam: The America that Americans forget

#233

Post by YellOh »

leobabauta wrote: post #231
YellOh wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have no particular opinion on Guam or its governance, but if Chamorus are a minority of the people living there (& a minority of the people born there?) it feels kind of unfair for them to unilaterally make major decisions and remove the majority group from the area. Ex. obviously what American settlers did to mainland Natives was heinous and should not have happened, but it's less clear that Natives of the current…

Guam is the homeland of the Chamorus, and it was taken from us by the Americans. For them to say they should vote on what should be done with it seems more unfair. We're a minority because of American action, not by choice.

On a historical level, I agree it's unfair. The Chamorus should never have had your land taken against your will. However, there are now a lot of Americans born on Guam, and it's to the point where it seems like it would also be unfair to kick out those people born there, with their families living on Guam for decades & who are now the majority.

I'm not arguing against you, necessarily. It's a hard situation and maybe Americans leaving is the better solution.

How far "back" do you think it's fair for decolonization advocates to go? Do you think the same argument you're using here, applied to other places (ex. the continental U.S.) is also correct?

-

Addendum via Wikipedia: "The United States Department of the Interior approved a $300,000 grant for decolonization education" in 2016[0]. No idea what to make of this.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guam#Government_and_politics

Re: Guam: The America that Americans forget

#234

Post by prmoustache »

deaddodo wrote: post #176
prmoustache wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, US people are prompt to point finger at the rest of the world and tell them how they should treat/call other peoples in order to not hurt them, so I think it is valid from non US people to tell US people to also fix their colloquial usage if it is rude towards other nations. Also colloquial doesn't mean universal. You know, putting your own house in order and stuff like that.

The colloquial usage is far greater than the US. Go watch some German, Dutch, British, Australian, French, etc media and then come back and talk. Your umbrage at the word is your problem and your insecurity. Americans are quite aware of the difference between America and America, and it's pretty clear in context. As a Spanish speaker, it's also obvious in 99% of contexts in Spanish. So there's nothing to fix beyond y…

So you play that false insecurity card (I am not even latino or even living/born in the american continent) with everyone?

Re: Guam: The America that Americans forget

#235

Post by pmarreck »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #226
pmarreck wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bali is incredibly hot and humid

Is it really that different from Guam? It seems to have a similar hot and humid climate, they are both islands of similar size, Bali is just closer to the equator.

It may not be that different from Guam, but I was comparing it (I guess, without making that clear, my bad) to more temperate retirement areas, than Guam.

I'm sure it's based on preference and tolerance, but very hot humid heat just saps all the enjoyment of life out of me when I'm outside, unless I'm on a sailboat or in a pool with a cold drink in my hand.

Re: Guam: The America that Americans forget

#236

Post by deaddodo »

prmoustache wrote: post #234
deaddodo wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The colloquial usage is far greater than the US. Go watch some German, Dutch, British, Australian, French, etc media and then come back and talk. Your umbrage at the word is your problem and your insecurity. Americans are quite aware of the difference between America and America, and it's pretty clear in context. As a Spanish speaker, it's also obvious in 99% of contexts in Spanish. So there's nothing to fix beyond y…

So you play that false insecurity card (I am not even latino or even living/born in the american continent) with everyone?

There's nothing to "play" here. Taking a misguided emotional stance on something that has very little effect on anyone and misattributing it to a "big bad" is a clear sign of personal insecurity.

If you're not Latino, it's even further mind-boggling how you would think this was an American derived phenomenon or in any way unique to American language. It goes back to intra-European communique well before the revolution and any concept of the US began.

Lastly: I'm Mexican, living in Mexico. Literally the only time I've ever heard any Latino refer to themselves as "American" (in English or Spanish) is specifically for the made up injustice you seem to have latched onto. So again, there's nothing to fix, beyond your hurt feelings and insecurities (vicarious or internalized), since the language is unambiguous.

I'm sure you'll have something to argue back with or some weird little nitpick that makes you think you've "won" though...so you can have the last word. Ciao.

Re: Guam: The America that Americans forget

#237

Post by cygnusmove »

sidewndr46 wrote: post #215
cygnusmove wrote: post #131

Was born in Saipan, a smaller island next to Guam. Americans didn’t forget Guam and Northern Mariana Islands. It’s more like Americans were never aware we are part of America to begin with. Hell, I got married in the States recently. My marriage license registration didn’t go through because my birthplace wasn’t a thing in the online application form. My wife had no issue, and she was born in a foreign country.

Sounds like fun. They probably ask what country Saipan was part of when you mentioned it too right? I've always wondered if anyone has been born on Palmyra Atoll, would make for fun trying to get documents saying as such

My wife and I had to take time off from work to go in person to explain. The rep knew exactly what the issue was and fixed it in minute.

The problem is always the website and how they implement the address selection for US 50 states, territories, and overseas military addresses.

But yes, people will ask where I’m from. I used to explain where I’m from but nowadays I just say I’m from Hawaii to keep intros short.

Re: Guam: The America that Americans forget

#238

Post by skissane »

ergl wrote: post #223
skissane wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Ordinary American citizens didn't like the idea of being colonizers, since they had, not long ago, been a colony themselves and fought to free themselves. Bad comparison: the American Revolution was a group of colonialists rebelling against their colonialist bosses, not a rebellion of the colonised against the coloniser. Indeed, one of the American Revolution’s complaints was that London was too protective of Nativ…

> Indeed, one of the American Revolution’s complaints was that London was too protective of Native American rights, and was limiting its colonies expansion into Native American territories. I've never heard of this. Do you have some links to read more about it?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Proclamation_of_1763

See also https://www.ushistory.org/us/13f.asp which says (my emphasis):

> from the perspective of almost all NATIVE AMERICANS the American Revolution was an unmitigated disaster… Gradually, however, it became clear to most native groups, that an independent America posed a far greater threat to their interests and way of life than a continued British presence that restrained American westward expansion.

> With remarkably few exceptions, Native American support for the British was close to universal.

The vast majority of Native Americans supported the British in the Revolutionary War, because while the British did not always respect their rights, they did so to a greater degree than the Revolutionaries did

Re: Guam: The America that Americans forget

#239

Post by yownie »

leobabauta wrote: post #218

I'm from Guam, and half Chamoru. Most of the comments in this thread show the ignorance that this article is pointing out — Americans don't understand the situation in Guam, because they've never had to really pay attention. Guam is a U.S. colony that has benefitted from the U.S., but has also been overrun by Americans and people from Asia, so that Chamorus are now a minority on the island. We've long wanted to have…

we do, we just silently watch with horror the pedantic masses here arguing about flights and walmart and shake our heads.

Re: Guam: The America that Americans forget

#240

Post by zoky »

TulliusCicero wrote: post #213
zoky wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given that many foreign airlines are at least in part government owned, this could be problematic. Do we really want Air China to come in and drastically undercut US based carriers in order to drive them out of business?

If it's price dumping or heavily government subsidized I suppose not, but if they're just more competitive then I don't see the issue. Realistically I just don't think that's gonna happen, if they have to abide by local labor laws.

I mean, in principle I agree with you. If Qantas or Lufthansa can come in and run things cheaper and better, I have no problem with letting them try to compete on the open market. But just like I wouldn’t want a US government owned airline to operate in competition with private carriers, I think it would be unfair competition to allow foreign governments to come in and operate any sort of ostensibly private company in the US, particularly one that provides a critical infrastructure service.

The even more difficult question is how to tell whether a foreign company is truly private or is secretly receiving government funding. With no way to collect tax information or audit the books of foreign companies operating in the US, there’s no way to tell.

I don’t think it’s inconceivable that China could set up a shell company to operate super cheap flights on, say, the west coast, with the express purpose of causing that market to collapse, leading to a domino effect as US carriers start to fold. Maybe it would work, and maybe it wouldn’t, but consider that the annual revenue for domestic carriers in 2022 was about $160 billion, and profit was about 1% of that. Given that China’s military budget is estimated at $230 billion, it doesn’t seem at all out of the realm of possibility to me that they might well try, entirely legally, undermine the US economy.

I’m not saying cabotage laws are the only thing preventing this scenario, or that it couldn’t be dealt with should it become apparent that it’s happening, but I think it’s definitely something to be consider when discussing the possibility of opening up any domestic market to foreign competition.

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