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An Indiana police department has been using Clearview AI for a year

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Re: An Indiana police department has been using Clearview AI for a year

#41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Evansville, Indiana isn't rural. It's a city of 100,000 people. If you take the entire county it's closer to 200k. Regardless, using this software to spy on people, illegally identify people etc is just F'd up.

Fair enough. I've never heard of the place, but my point stands.

No, your point does not stand. Karl Marx asserted a bunch of things without proof. Everywhere that his ideas were tried turned into a disaster. Usually resulting in totalitarian rule. And often accompanied by mass casualties.

Meanwhile countries that went to capitalism have become far more democratic than they were in Karl Marx's day. They are still not as democratic as you'd like. But read your history books. For example in Marx's day, the USA was just ending slavery. Since then we added the vote for women, made "senator" an elected position, mostly ended vote buying, and passed the Voting Rights Act.

Compare and contrast with, say, Russia.

Karl Marx's theories were pseudoscience that didn't work. He didn't prove anything when he said them. And all that you are prove by quoting him is that you are misinformed.

Re: An Indiana police department has been using Clearview AI for a year

#42
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing in recent years about the culpability of local US police departments in constitutional violations, crimes, corruption, and their lack of accountability and tendency to hire bullies who have been 'fired' from other departments for blatantly illegal actions has led you to question giving them access to more surveillance tools with no oversight? > a moot point if we only focus on government sanctioned software p…

I don’t disagree with anything you said - I just think it’s a case of missing the forest for the trees if we single out government purchases when many of these tools are well on their way to broad availability anyway. It feels like suspicion of and focus on government is occluding the larger problem here. The public may not have the legal authority to break down doors and generally take matters into their own hands,…

Access to the tools by the public seems like a thorny legislative issue. There are no new laws that need to be passed to require cops to tell everyone how they found evidence.

That they call these 'investigative tools' and don't disclose their use is something very fixable.

Law enforcement can't think they don't have to be transparent from those who hold them accountable (including defense lawyers -- remember that 'free on a technicality' means that someone in the justice system did something very wrong and got called on it).

Re: An Indiana police department has been using Clearview AI for a year

#43

So i'm in favor of police going back to the basics, good old-fashioned detective work. The forensics are not what they're cracked up to be, there's very little verifiability n verification, too easy for the forensics lab to lie through their teeth or contaminate the scene of the crime. Like when the Duke Lacross players had to hire a very expensive lawyer to do the messy work of proving evidence actually traced back…

Other things that are easy to forget about Duke Lacrosse:

1) The "Gang of 88" never apologized.

2) The failure to prosecute Mangum and put her away led to a man's death; she's in jail for that now.

Re: An Indiana police department has been using Clearview AI for a year

#44
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From someone who's curious, why would the concept of "checks and balances" appear juvenile? Do you find it represents an ideal without possible application in the real world? Genuinely interested in hearing the why behind your statement.

Not my comment, but I would say its because the checks and balances on people in power are also performed by people in power so many times its just a bit of theatre. Like when you see the police do something absolutely brutally and clear as day a breach of duty and violating someone's rights that should have them not only fired and barred from ever again serving in law enforcement but also put in jail; yet are 'clear…

> Not my comment, but I would say its because the checks and balances on people in power are also performed by people in power so many times its just a bit of theatre.

This is at best naive.

People in power, when not already aligned into some faction or cartel tend to be adversarial with each other. People in power like keeping theirs, but also taking others'. Thus, they are also on guard about others taking their power.

When the checks and balances fail, it's usually because someone screwed up and tinkered with things they did not really understand, undermining these mechanisms. The 17th amendment comes to mind.

Even if you were right, the answer to insufficient safeguards isn't "fewer safeguards".

> Like when you see the police do something absolutely brutally and clear as day a breach of duty and violating someone's rights that should have them not only fired and barred from ever again serving in law enforcement but also put in jail; yet are 'cleared of all wrong-doing' by the police system of checks and balances.

Two things come to mind. First, nothing you've described herewithin is even remotely a "checks and balances" system. Second, the problem with the police is that everyone erroneously believes that they want to keep the police only that the police should do what they do to some other group than that they're currently abusing.

The police do not actually accomplish any objectives that anyone (non-homicidal-psychopaths) want. If your bike or car is stolen, they don't retrieve your property... they tell you to fuck off and go have insurance handle it. If you're mugged or raped or killed, they don't catch your assailant except by accident (and likely will bungle that prosecution anyway). If you're still being attacked, they're unlikely to rescue you, don't even have a duty to do so. And god help anyone who comes to their attention when they're in a bad mood.

You already live in a world where the police that you want to exist in your idealistic daydreams do not exist. Neither in whole nor in part. And you survive (more or less) just fine. We could get rid of the abusive police (that's all of them), and nothing would get worse for you.

Most people don't want that though. They imagine doomsday scenarios where chaos would instantly erupt.

Re: An Indiana police department has been using Clearview AI for a year

#45

All these tools and murder clearance rates are still historical low. https://www.npr.org/2023/04/29/1172775448/people-murder-unso...

NPR a few years ago: "Defund the police, all cops are bastards, snitches get stitches!" NPR Today: "Why are murders going unsolved?"

> As discussed throughout, the above results provide no evidence that greater police budgets lead to increases in homicide clearance rates (or equivalently, lower police budgets decrease homicide clearance rates).

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/jels.12325

Re: An Indiana police department has been using Clearview AI for a year

#46
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NPR a few years ago: "Defund the police, all cops are bastards, snitches get stitches!" NPR Today: "Why are murders going unsolved?"

> As discussed throughout, the above results provide no evidence that greater police budgets lead to increases in homicide clearance rates (or equivalently, lower police budgets decrease homicide clearance rates). https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/jels.12325

Let's set it to zero then, save billions.

Re: An Indiana police department has been using Clearview AI for a year

#47

All these tools and murder clearance rates are still historical low. https://www.npr.org/2023/04/29/1172775448/people-murder-unso...

NPR a few years ago: "Defund the police, all cops are bastards, snitches get stitches!" NPR Today: "Why are murders going unsolved?"

[deleted]

Re: An Indiana police department has been using Clearview AI for a year

#48
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NPR a few years ago: "Defund the police, all cops are bastards, snitches get stitches!" NPR Today: "Why are murders going unsolved?"

Two questions: 1. Can you point me to where NPR said “snitches get stitches” 2. Which police departments precisely were defunded?

I watched this narrative unfold in the wake of George Floyd in my beloved Minneapolis. While I can't answer the question directly, I can relay the message that some law enforcement relatives told me:

While defunding never materialized, mass quitting and a huge change in enforcement away from areas that, well, might result in another George Floyd incident have produced effectively the same thing as a big old defund. There is less presence and less inclination to pursue calls in areas of trouble.

My opinion is this is kind of a temper tantrum on the part of some of these folks I spoke to, but the reality is that many of them fear getting caught up in sweeping reforms and made an example of.

Make no mistake those reforms are probably coming, esp after the federal report on the Minneapolis policing, but I don't think it will involve less money.

Re: An Indiana police department has been using Clearview AI for a year

#49
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As discussed throughout, the above results provide no evidence that greater police budgets lead to increases in homicide clearance rates (or equivalently, lower police budgets decrease homicide clearance rates). https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/jels.12325

Let's set it to zero then, save billions.

Do you operate using anything besides fallacies?

Re: An Indiana police department has been using Clearview AI for a year

#50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's set it to zero then, save billions.

Do you operate using anything besides fallacies?

> no evidence that greater police budgets lead to increases in homicide clearance rates (or equivalently, lower police budgets decrease homicide clearance rates).

No evidence. The experts are clear, police funding doesn't have anything to do with murder clearance rates. I mean that's super counter intuitive, I'd think the more interviews you do, the more forensics you have done, the more likely you are to solve the case but apparently not. I guess all that stuff was just a waste of time, or the experts are wrong once again.

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