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Guam: The America that Americans forget

nytimes.com

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Re: Guam: The America that Americans forget

#151

Post by postsantum »

zgluck wrote: post #132
TMWNN wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Went digging for what might be the origin of the joke. SAHL BACK IN U.S. WITH MORE BITE (1986) https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1986-10-09-860316... And what is a liberal, according to [Mort] Sahl? Well, he offered a nice definition at one point, saying that if the Reagan-Gorbachev summit broke down and the worst eventually took place, the headline in the Washington Post the next day would read: 'Nuclear Ho…

Oh wow, this even predates the Hillary's "women have always been the primary victims of war" (1998)

Re: Guam: The America that Americans forget

#152

Post by deaddodo »

anonym29 wrote: post #69

No taxation without representation. Stop charging the inhabitants for any and all U.S. taxes. Hell, decolonize and let them have their freedom and independence.

The territories can at any point take a (democratic and non-contestable) vote for their sovereignty. If a majority decided to become a sovereign entity, it's very unlikely the United States would not grant them it. They can also do the same for statehood, but that's a bit more complicated; even so, before 2000, a majority of the United States was pro allowing Puerto Rico statehood, if they decided it. Now....well, good luck given political infighting.

Your option, instead, is forcing millions of American citizens, against their will, into a sovereign situation that they might not be prepared for. Versus letting them make their own choice.

Re: Guam: The America that Americans forget

#153

Post by fransje26 »

TulliusCicero wrote: post #80
wayne wrote: post #25

The article touches a little on flight costs, but as someone who'd love to visit sometime and never has, it annoys me how flights to Guam work. Given its location most airlines don't fly direct from the mainland, so many flights to Guam are from Asia. But, you can't buy a ticket from the US with a layover in Japan from JAL or with a layover in Korea from Korean Air because any flight with a US origin to a US destinat…

I wish we'd get rid of this rule entirely. Just seems like naked protectionism, no? If a non-US carrier abides by local regulations, I don't see an issue with letting them run domestic flights.

It's better than that. Those are IATA rules, and IATA has been functioning as a cartel more or less since it has been founded..

Re: Guam: The America that Americans forget

#154

Post by deaddodo »

mc32 wrote: post #4

Ah, yes, the island that could capsize, if we load it up with too much materiel, according to a particular US Senator... Guam is like Guantanamo, or Diego Garcia. We're there only because they are of strategic importance for the post-war (WWII) projection of power and nothing more. Else all those little island bases would be quiet places like so many other small islands that dot the oceans.

> Else all those little island bases would be quiet places like so many other small islands that dot the oceans.

Most of those "quiet places" in the Pacific are in free association with the United States. They still "act as bases" in return for the United States offering guaranteed protection and sovereignty. So I'm not quite sure what your comparison point is supposed to be: a) places that ended up under US possession after the Spanish-American war and are now full of American citizens (barring one specific example that still exists for very racist reasons) after being a part of the US for over a century or b) places that willingly lend themselves a similar situation in exchange for protection from (what they consider) worse options.

Re: Guam: The America that Americans forget

#155

Post by pyrale »

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #52
mc32 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sometimes you have to let countries duke it out themselves and settle their scores by themselves. I also think post Cold War, we're spending way too much money protecting others at US taxpayer expense. Let those countries defend themselves. Why do we have to be the world police and take all the blowback?

> we're spending way too much money protecting others at US taxpayer expense. Is US pritectibg Europe, or US interests in Europe? Over the past 40 years the US spending on arms has grown, but fewer and fewer pieces are being produced. Pentagon fails audits. Now it got to the point where USA cannot supply Ukraine with enough artillery rounds, and they are like the aimplest item to produce. Economy of Russia is like 10…

> Now it got to the point where USA cannot supply Ukraine with enough artillery rounds, and they are like the aimplest item to produce. Economy of Russia is like 10x smaller, this should not even be a contest in terms of production.

Never in modern history has a country been able to sustain a full-blown war without adapting its production capacity. It's not surprising that an economy dimensioned for peacetime doesn't successfully sustain a war.

> Imagine if there is a real conflict, and things like cruise missiles need to be replaced, what happens then - you place an order and wait 2 years for it to be delivered?

Basically, yes. Always was. As explained in the Vietnam war example [1]: "D to P stocks are those war reserves of ammunition which are stocked in peace time to provide the necessary reservoir of ammunition to sustain combat operations until such time that the planned production base can be activated"

[1]: http://webdoc.sub.gwdg.de/ebook/p/2005/CMH_2/www.army.mil/cm...

Re: Guam: The America that Americans forget

#156

Post by zoky »

TulliusCicero wrote: post #80
wayne wrote: post #25

The article touches a little on flight costs, but as someone who'd love to visit sometime and never has, it annoys me how flights to Guam work. Given its location most airlines don't fly direct from the mainland, so many flights to Guam are from Asia. But, you can't buy a ticket from the US with a layover in Japan from JAL or with a layover in Korea from Korean Air because any flight with a US origin to a US destinat…

I wish we'd get rid of this rule entirely. Just seems like naked protectionism, no? If a non-US carrier abides by local regulations, I don't see an issue with letting them run domestic flights.

Given that many foreign airlines are at least in part government owned, this could be problematic. Do we really want Air China to come in and drastically undercut US based carriers in order to drive them out of business?

Re: Guam: The America that Americans forget

#157

Post by deaddodo »

jjulius wrote: post #70
jcranmer wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We're there only because they are of strategic importance for the post-war (WWII) projection of power and nothing more. Are you aware that the US acquired Guam decades before WWII?

Not taking a stance one way or another, but the reason for remaining somewhere can be wholly different from the reason you acquired that locale in the first place.

It's an oversimplified view of a very complicated situation, though. And it ignores a) the feelings of the residents in those territories themselves (many would like statehood or the status quo, sovereignty is the least popular option in almost every inhabited territory) and b) the fact that they are all US citizens as well.

People always focus on the fact that there is a military base in some of the territories and assume that is the primary reasoning, while ignoring the fact that there are hundreds of US airbases in California alone, along with the marine, naval and army bases. Yet that's hardly the reason California is a part of the US.

There's certainly an argument for the territories' status and where they should end up, but I don't believe the primary motivation is militaristic.

Re: Guam: The America that Americans forget

#159

Post by Mat3777 »

TMWNN wrote: post #84

The usual lies and distortions that we expect from the Times . Just some examples: >In 1893, Americans overthrew the monarchy in Hawaii, then later annexed the island. A committee of native-born Hawaii citizens, Americans, and Europeans overthrew the monarchy, not the US government. The US didn't annex Hawaii until the Spanish War in 1898 demonstrated the islands' importance to the US. >a series of Supreme Court ruli…

Sounds like you are justifying imperialism

Re: Guam: The America that Americans forget

#160

Post by Mat3777 »

TMWNN wrote: post #146
pimlottc wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A committee of native-born Hawaii citizens, Americans, and Europeans overthrew the monarchy, not the US government. The US didn't annex Hawaii until the Spanish War in 1898 demonstrated the islands' importance to the US. The native-born citizens in the Committee of Safety [0] were almost all second and third generation descendants of Americans. No ethnic Hawaiians were members. While the committee was composed of p…

> The native-born citizens in the Committee of Safety [0] were almost all second and third generation descendants of Americans. No ethnic Hawaiians were members. So because of their ethnicity, they don't count as "native" Hawaiians despite having been born on the islands with birthright citizenship. Got it. One begins to understand why they joined the "Committee of Safety" that plotted the overthrow of the monarchy,…

Again justifying imperialism and colonialism
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