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Guam: The America that Americans forget

nytimes.com

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Re: Guam: The America that Americans forget

#101

Post by bigfryo »

CobaltFire wrote: post #66
r24y wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Flight costs are a pain, and the flight durations are nothing to sneeze at either. I live out in Guam (my wife is stationed here with the Navy) and the two most common ways to get back to the mainland are via Tokyo (Narita) and Honolulu. I would definitely encourage visiting if you have the means! I find there are two types of people here: those who feel limited by the island and its infrastructure (no Target, no Sta…

My family and I loved our time there (Navy as well). We almost retired there, but my son's health condition(s) precludes that. Space-A is how we flew back during our tour there, and if you know the tricks it work great. If you don't it's a nightmare.

My father was stationed in Guam for a couple of years during the Korean War but he was in the Navy. And then when I was getting mustered out of the Navy 40 years ago I landed on Guam briefly on a flight out of Kobe Japan, on my way to Hawaii

Re: Guam: The America that Americans forget

#102

Post by smcin »

calgarymicro wrote: post #33
givemeethekeys wrote: post #27

Forgetting what is America is one of the reasons Americans lost the Philippines as a territory.

Did they ever want to keep it? It was my understanding that, as with Mexico following the Mexican American War, many in the US didn't want permanent integration due to racial sentiments; the thought of giving tens of millions of Filipinos US citizenship horrified them.

If the US had annexed/colonized/assimilated the Philippines permanently (post 1920s), it would have had to resolve the 500 years of unresolved history of Mindanao and Sulu: first colonized /occupied by Spanish [0], then by the US itself.

The US role in the Philippine-American War (1899-1902) is underdiscussed, but it includes large-scale civilian deaths, cholera, famine, torture, mutilation, executions, (by both sides) concentration camps; it has been claimed the cholera was intentionally used against the civilian population. Casualties were as high as 1 million of the 6-7 million total population. [1] Mark Twain (along with other anti-imperialists) famously opposed the war and said it betrayed the ideals of American democracy by not allowing the Filipino people to choose their own destiny.

The Moro Rebellion (1899–1913) was an armed conflict between the Moro people (Muslims in Southern Philippines: Mindanao, Jolo, Sulu) and the US military during the Philippine–American War. [2]

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mindanao#Spanish_colonization_...

[1]: Casualties https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippine%E2%80%93American_Wa...

[2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moro_Rebellion

Re: Guam: The America that Americans forget

#103

Post by lotsofpulp »

Aerbil313 wrote: post #91
r24y wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Flight costs are a pain, and the flight durations are nothing to sneeze at either. I live out in Guam (my wife is stationed here with the Navy) and the two most common ways to get back to the mainland are via Tokyo (Narita) and Honolulu. I would definitely encourage visiting if you have the means! I find there are two types of people here: those who feel limited by the island and its infrastructure (no Target, no Sta…

> those who feel limited by the island and its infrastructure (no Target, no Starbucks, etc.) I hate those people. I live in a city of 1.5 million (there's everything here), and it's a constant background radiation talking point for a significant number of my highschool friends: how unfortunate they are that they don't live in the nearby city of 15 million. IME this constant moping has everything to do with the amoun…

There is quite a bit of difference between the inconvenience of not having a Target that gets frequent shipments of a wide variety of goods which help ease daily life, and not having the amenities of a 15M person city versus a 1.5M person city.

My biggest pain point of remote island life is not having access to a variety of affordable dairy foods.

Re: Guam: The America that Americans forget

#104

Post by throwaway742 »

smcin wrote: post #86
wayne wrote: post #25

The article touches a little on flight costs, but as someone who'd love to visit sometime and never has, it annoys me how flights to Guam work. Given its location most airlines don't fly direct from the mainland, so many flights to Guam are from Asia. But, you can't buy a ticket from the US with a layover in Japan from JAL or with a layover in Korea from Korean Air because any flight with a US origin to a US destinat…

Yes, under current airline treaties it's actually more complicated and takes longer to fly mainland US to Guam, than mainland US to the Philippines. Even though Guam is only a short 1500ml from the Philippines, and: Philippine Airlines flights from west-coast US (SF, LA) refuel in Guam, since a 2006 "technical stop" agreement [0] (not allowed to pick up passengers on Guam, but can refuel and pick up supplies); at lea…

What if you had a medical emergency while on the tarmac in Guam?

Re: Guam: The America that Americans forget

#105

Post by belval »

Aerbil313 wrote: post #91
r24y wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Flight costs are a pain, and the flight durations are nothing to sneeze at either. I live out in Guam (my wife is stationed here with the Navy) and the two most common ways to get back to the mainland are via Tokyo (Narita) and Honolulu. I would definitely encourage visiting if you have the means! I find there are two types of people here: those who feel limited by the island and its infrastructure (no Target, no Sta…

> those who feel limited by the island and its infrastructure (no Target, no Starbucks, etc.) I hate those people. I live in a city of 1.5 million (there's everything here), and it's a constant background radiation talking point for a significant number of my highschool friends: how unfortunate they are that they don't live in the nearby city of 15 million. IME this constant moping has everything to do with the amoun…

I mean some like hyperdense megacities and everything that comes with it bleeding edge/underground scene for X, 24 hours life, close proximity to people. It's completely alien to me as well but why look down on people liking different things?

Re: Guam: The America that Americans forget

#106

Post by lotsofpulp »

jlmorton wrote: post #95
fnordpiglet wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you misunderstood. They said US->US destination has to be operated by a us carrier. JFK->FRA->SIN doesn’t have a US designation and United is a US carrier.

Nevertheless, notice the other example I gave is a United flight originating in Honolulu, Hawaii, transiting Micronesia, and ending in Guam. It’s the same rule.

That is an American airline flight that starts and ends in the US, therefore complying with the rule.

Re: Guam: The America that Americans forget

#107

Post by smcin »

throwaway742 wrote: post #104
smcin wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, under current airline treaties it's actually more complicated and takes longer to fly mainland US to Guam, than mainland US to the Philippines. Even though Guam is only a short 1500ml from the Philippines, and: Philippine Airlines flights from west-coast US (SF, LA) refuel in Guam, since a 2006 "technical stop" agreement [0] (not allowed to pick up passengers on Guam, but can refuel and pick up supplies); at lea…

What if you had a medical emergency while on the tarmac in Guam?

I'm sure they'd treat you locally (I wonder if air-rage cases get dropped there unscheduled, too, although I don't think so). It's not like the border is hermetically sealed; just disembarking on those particular flights is not available to passengers or skiplaggers. (To be clear, that's because it's a non-US (Philippine Airlines) flight on a technical stopover in a US territory (Guam)). The limitation is purely legal. The airline treaties distort pricing and competition, otherwise it should be possible to do a 24/48h stopover in Guam, Taipei etc., and even lower your overall ticket price if you're flexible about dates.

If not, a creative itinerary with multiple stopovers like Manila-Guam-Honolulu-Anchorage-Seattle could be interesting.

Re: Guam: The America that Americans forget

#108

Post by arcticbull »

smcin wrote: post #86
wayne wrote: post #25

The article touches a little on flight costs, but as someone who'd love to visit sometime and never has, it annoys me how flights to Guam work. Given its location most airlines don't fly direct from the mainland, so many flights to Guam are from Asia. But, you can't buy a ticket from the US with a layover in Japan from JAL or with a layover in Korea from Korean Air because any flight with a US origin to a US destinat…

Yes, under current airline treaties it's actually more complicated and takes longer to fly mainland US to Guam, than mainland US to the Philippines. Even though Guam is only a short 1500ml from the Philippines, and: Philippine Airlines flights from west-coast US (SF, LA) refuel in Guam, since a 2006 "technical stop" agreement [0] (not allowed to pick up passengers on Guam, but can refuel and pick up supplies); at lea…

This is because of 'cabotage' rules, where foreign carriers aren't allowed to sell tickets between two domestic destinations, and except for EU carriers flying within EU countries, this is standard practice all over the world.

Qantas has historically had a similar stop in LAX en route to JFK, although new aircraft will allow them to start making the trip non-stop, in an initiative called 'project sunrise.' [1] I believe they are currently routing that flight with a stop in Auckland as QF3, although they are running AKL-JFK as a 5th freedom with pick-up rights in AKL.

I don't think it's true that it's faster to get to Philippines than Guam from the mainland - you just have to transit in Honolulu. SFO-HNL-GUM on United is 14h15, whereas the non-stop SFO-MNL is 14h35. Philippines only offers limited non-stop options to Manila - just LAX, SFO and JFK - so much of the time you'd be connecting either way, and that eliminates any advantages. After all, Honolulu is pretty much on the way to Guam based on the great circle arc. [2]

[1] https://www.qantas.com/au/en/about-us/our-company/fleet/new-...

[2] http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=SFO-HNL-GUM,+SFO-MNL

Re: Guam: The America that Americans forget

#109

Post by arcticbull »

throwaway742 wrote: post #104
smcin wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, under current airline treaties it's actually more complicated and takes longer to fly mainland US to Guam, than mainland US to the Philippines. Even though Guam is only a short 1500ml from the Philippines, and: Philippine Airlines flights from west-coast US (SF, LA) refuel in Guam, since a 2006 "technical stop" agreement [0] (not allowed to pick up passengers on Guam, but can refuel and pick up supplies); at lea…

What if you had a medical emergency while on the tarmac in Guam?

Same as if there was a medical emergency anywhere along the flight path. The plane pulls into the nearest gate where you'd be looked after and you get off. The prohibition is on transporting passengers between two domestic points as a single flight or as a single ticket / with stops under 24h - but note that there's nothing to stop you for instance buying a ticket from SFO-NRT and then a separate NRT-GUM ticket both on ANA.

Cabotage is also referred to as the 9th air freedom, for the curious. [1]

The prohibition on cabotage also applies to passenger and cargo ships. [2]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedoms_of_the_air

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cabotage

Re: Guam: The America that Americans forget

#110

Post by throw47474777j »

sreejithr wrote: post #49
throw47474777j wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is possible to both agree with fighting back and trying to keep the peace such as it exists, and at the same time realize it’s obviously absurd to try to undo all the aggressions stretching back through history.

Of course it’s impossible to undo evils of the past. I’m talking about the present though. The islanders shouldn’t be invaded for “power projection” because they are human beings too. It’s pretty much the same thing Russia is doing.

> It’s pretty much the same thing Russia is doing.

Complete gibberish. You can’t seriously be claiming that cities in Guam are being turned to rubble under heavy artillery fire, and children being kidnapped etc.

Ukraine is at war.

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