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Guam: The America that Americans forget

nytimes.com

81–90 of 555 posts

Re: Guam: The America that Americans forget

#81
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Talk when you've given your house back to whatever native people were there before you. Or should you give it to the "native" people that were there before them? Or the ones before those ones? Or maybe just accept that the one constant of life is everyone takes everyone else's shit if/when they can/want.

> Or maybe just accept that the one constant of life is everyone takes everyone else's shit if and when they can and want. Sure. But if this is normal, why is it so hard to accept what Russia is doing to Ukraine? Just because evils were done in the past, doesn’t mean we should just accept it as universal truths and continue doing the same things to others (islanders). If you accept that Russia is wrong, then invading…

We hold and use Guam for the same reason we support Ukraine against Russia: We believe these things are in our interests.

The justifications we give are just words.

Re: Guam: The America that Americans forget

#82
post #25

The article touches a little on flight costs, but as someone who'd love to visit sometime and never has, it annoys me how flights to Guam work. Given its location most airlines don't fly direct from the mainland, so many flights to Guam are from Asia. But, you can't buy a ticket from the US with a layover in Japan from JAL or with a layover in Korea from Korean Air because any flight with a US origin to a US destinat…

Can't you buy 2 separate tickets?

you can but you're going to pay more in general. There are a lot of pricing rules around layovers that make it cheaper than buying tickets separately (basically to give the airlines flexibility to utilize all their planes).

Re: Guam: The America that Americans forget

#83
post #25

The article touches a little on flight costs, but as someone who'd love to visit sometime and never has, it annoys me how flights to Guam work. Given its location most airlines don't fly direct from the mainland, so many flights to Guam are from Asia. But, you can't buy a ticket from the US with a layover in Japan from JAL or with a layover in Korea from Korean Air because any flight with a US origin to a US destinat…

> because any flight with a US origin to a US destination can only be sold by a US carrier.

That's not exactly true. It just requires the USA and the other country to have negotiated a Fifth Freedom agreement.

There are lots of foreign-owned airlines flying from the US with layovers and stopovers in other countries. For instance, I recently flew JFK->FRA->SIN on Singapore Airlines. And United even operates their Island Hopper route, Honolulu-Majuro-Kwajalein Atoll-Kosrae-Pohnpei-Truk-Guam, among many others.

Re: Guam: The America that Americans forget

#84
The usual lies and distortions that we expect from the Times. Just some examples:

>In 1893, Americans overthrew the monarchy in Hawaii, then later annexed the island.

A committee of native-born Hawaii citizens, Americans, and Europeans overthrew the monarchy, not the US government. The US didn't annex Hawaii until the Spanish War in 1898 demonstrated the islands' importance to the US.

>a series of Supreme Court rulings called the Insular Cases that began in 1901, five years after the court allowed “separate but equal” segregation"

The Insular Cases had absolutely nothing to do with Plessy v. Ferguson. The latter is no longer the law of the land; the former still are.

>Though some CHamoru tried to fight the Japanese, the overwhelming narrative holds that American soldiers were the saviors of Guam. Every year on July 21, the island shuts down for the Liberation Day Parade, a grand military procession down Marine Corps Drive to mark the anniversary of Uncle Sam’s return.

This and the following paragraph makes it sound like Guam's residents have been brainwashed into thinking that American soldiers were not, in fact, the saviors of Guam.

>The country wasn’t colloquially referred to as “America” until 1898.

This is so, so, so wrong that I can't even sputter about it.

Small islands are either part of bigger countries, or are protected by them. There is no alternative. One does not have to like it to accept it as the only realistic outcome. If Guam were not American, it would today be a Chinese possession with the entirety of its surface area garrisoned. Without the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Americans in the Pacific War, the Japanese rapes of native Guamian women would have continued forever.

Re: Guam: The America that Americans forget

#85

Forgetting what is America is one of the reasons Americans lost the Philippines as a territory.

Did they ever want to keep it? It was my understanding that, as with Mexico following the Mexican American War, many in the US didn't want permanent integration due to racial sentiments; the thought of giving tens of millions of Filipinos US citizenship horrified them.

I do not know about the Philippines. The US military controlled Okinawa up until 1972, and even then was not very hype about "giving it back" (Okinawa's history mirrors Hawaii, so reversion to Japan was not necessarily the "correct" end state, bit it was a popular one at the time).

I think the reality is that so long as these territories are not states, I think most Americans are "fine", and barely even register that this is happening. I think even the status of places like Puerto Rico (US citizens since 1917!) has only fairly recently been understood by most Americans compared to 20 years ago.

Things are nuanced and not totally black and white, and with the Philippines it does feel like the ball was rolling so strongly that any colonial ambitions would be hard to establish. But Guam was also taken at the same time and is still a territory!

Places small enough to be permanent military bases are likely good candidates for permanent colonialisation by the US gov't.

Re: Guam: The America that Americans forget

#86
post #25

The article touches a little on flight costs, but as someone who'd love to visit sometime and never has, it annoys me how flights to Guam work. Given its location most airlines don't fly direct from the mainland, so many flights to Guam are from Asia. But, you can't buy a ticket from the US with a layover in Japan from JAL or with a layover in Korea from Korean Air because any flight with a US origin to a US destinat…

Yes, under current airline treaties it's actually more complicated and takes longer to fly mainland US to Guam, than mainland US to the Philippines. Even though Guam is only a short 1500ml from the Philippines, and:

Philippine Airlines flights from west-coast US (SF, LA) refuel in Guam, since a 2006 "technical stop" agreement [0] (not allowed to pick up passengers on Guam, but can refuel and pick up supplies); at least during the winter headwinds, Nov-Mar [1]. Passengers can't even get out of the plane, you get to sit on the tarmac and watch the fuel tankers out the window for 45min in the predawn. I wanted to at least get out and see the inside of the terminal but absolutely not. ("Guam: the ultimate skiplagged challenge")

So you won't see this arrangement show up on any ticket engines, and they're not allowed say "Philippine Airlines flies to Guam". Are there any good articles on how current airline treaties affect routes and pricing in the Pacific?

[0]: "Guam replaces Honolulu as stop for PAL flights" https://www.philstar.com/headlines/2006/01/06/315333/guam-re...

[1]: "The one-hour technical stops are required during certain times of the year, particularly during the winter months of November to March, when headwinds are strong enough to affect aircraft flying westward across the Pacific." (to avoid exceeding MTOW)

[2]: discussed on https://www.pprune.org/south-asia-far-east/374507-pal-techni...

I'm sure Gordon Lightfoot (RIP) could have sung about treaties...

Re: Guam: The America that Americans forget

#87
post #25

The article touches a little on flight costs, but as someone who'd love to visit sometime and never has, it annoys me how flights to Guam work. Given its location most airlines don't fly direct from the mainland, so many flights to Guam are from Asia. But, you can't buy a ticket from the US with a layover in Japan from JAL or with a layover in Korea from Korean Air because any flight with a US origin to a US destinat…

> because any flight with a US origin to a US destination can only be sold by a US carrier. That's not exactly true. It just requires the USA and the other country to have negotiated a Fifth Freedom agreement. There are lots of foreign-owned airlines flying from the US with layovers and stopovers in other countries. For instance, I recently flew JFK->FRA->SIN on Singapore Airlines. And United even operates their Isla…

I think you misunderstood. They said US->US destination has to be operated by a us carrier. JFK->FRA->SIN doesn’t have a US designation and United is a US carrier.

Re: Guam: The America that Americans forget

#88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about those islanders though? "Power projection" is important. But it's sad that its at the expense of human beings who live and work there.

I know someone who grew up near a US base in the Philippines. Her father was employed as a cook at the base. When the base was closed, they went back to eeking out a living through subsistence farming. There are some positive economic impacts for the locals.

https://dc-office.org/basedata#p5 I highly recommend reading the Okinawa prefectural government's DC office fact sheet. Short story: There'd be a lot more useful economic activity from developing the land these bases are on.

(Okinawa has DC offices because the prefecture and the Japanese mainland gov't are not aligned on these topics at all. The prefecture basically wants these bases gone, and don't really want SDF bases there either. Tokyo wants the bases.)

Re: Guam: The America that Americans forget

#89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And pray neither is delayed, causing you to miss the next leg.

Just space them out out or even take a couple days to visit Japan. Some airports even have programs where they'll take you on a field trip during your layover

These suggestions are cognitive load on the person making the trip. Most people break out in sweats thinking about organizing a trip to begin with, booking something with any complexity or risk is unbearable to them. My parents are both like this.

Re: Guam: The America that Americans forget

#90
post #4

Ah, yes, the island that could capsize, if we load it up with too much materiel, according to a particular US Senator... Guam is like Guantanamo, or Diego Garcia. We're there only because they are of strategic importance for the post-war (WWII) projection of power and nothing more. Else all those little island bases would be quiet places like so many other small islands that dot the oceans.

> We're there only because they are of strategic importance for the post-war (WWII) projection of power and nothing more. Are you aware that the US acquired Guam decades before WWII?

…And then acquired by the Japanese at the outbreak of WWII and then we took it back toward the end of WWII. Its importance lies in its geography. It is a nice base from which to project power. The Spanish knew that, the Japanese knew that and we knew that. Else it’d be like many mid oceanic islands. Or the Orkney islands. The importance is military strategic importance, else they’d be like the Faroe Islands. Some place somewhere.
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