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Guam: The America that Americans forget

nytimes.com

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Re: Guam: The America that Americans forget

#41

Post by sreejithr »

throw47474777j wrote: post #38
sreejithr wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Or maybe just accept that the one constant of life is everyone takes everyone else's shit if and when they can and want. Sure. But if this is normal, why is it so hard to accept what Russia is doing to Ukraine? Just because evils were done in the past, doesn’t mean we should just accept it as universal truths and continue doing the same things to others (islanders). If you accept that Russia is wrong, then invading…

Are you saying the natives didn’t fight back?

I’m not saying that. Natives did fight back. Just like the brave Ukrainians.

Re: Guam: The America that Americans forget

#42

Post by InTheArena »

mc32 wrote: post #8
baggy_trough wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand why "only" and "and nothing more" are present in that sentence. You don't think strategic projection of power is important?

Sometimes you have to let countries duke it out themselves and settle their scores by themselves. I also think post Cold War, we're spending way too much money protecting others at US taxpayer expense. Let those countries defend themselves. Why do we have to be the world police and take all the blowback?

American actions post world war II and post cold war are founded from the experience post-world War I, when USA left Europe to fend for itself, defend itself, and rebuild itself it resulted in a much worse outcome for the world. We tried again after World War II, but after it became clear that Europe would be ripped apart by their internal issues after World War II, and stalin would exploit that to continue to drive the iron curtain west, the USA re-engaged in Europe.

The USA and Europe have a role to play in keeping the peace. It's not a accident that China is regularly violating Japanese territorial waters (as they did last week, he 8 mile line here, not exclusive economic zones) and threatening their neighbors over possession of islands that can strangle world trade.

When China (and Russia for that manner) show that they can be apart of a international community based on common principles of human rights, there won't be a need... but until then.

Re: Guam: The America that Americans forget

#44

Post by [deleted] »

sreejithr wrote: post #32
jakear wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Talk when you've given your house back to whatever native people were there before you. Or should you give it to the "native" people that were there before them? Or the ones before those ones? Or maybe just accept that the one constant of life is everyone takes everyone else's shit if/when they can/want.

> Or maybe just accept that the one constant of life is everyone takes everyone else's shit if and when they can and want. Sure. But if this is normal, why is it so hard to accept what Russia is doing to Ukraine? Just because evils were done in the past, doesn’t mean we should just accept it as universal truths and continue doing the same things to others (islanders). If you accept that Russia is wrong, then invading…

[deleted]

Re: Guam: The America that Americans forget

#45

Post by throw47474777j »

mc32 wrote: post #16
macintux wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because we benefit disproportionately from world peace, uninterrupted shipping, and the world economy using the U.S. dollar as its reserve currency.

The dollar became the world currency by accident after the OPEC started pricing petroleum in dollars. We're starting to see a slow departure from that. If we did not spend those extra tens of billions per year in projecting power, we could better serve our students, workers, retirees, infrastructure, etc. Instead, they go to ensuring Japan, Korea, Philippines, etc. don't have to spend so much on defense. As China asc…

> If we did not spend those extra tens of billions per year in projecting power, we could better serve our students, workers, retirees, infrastructure, etc.

This is laughable. If we didn’t spend billions projecting power, we’d be much poorer because world trade would become much more costly for us, as China reshapes it to its own advantage.

China isn’t looking in great shape to do any ‘ascending’ anyway.

Re: Guam: The America that Americans forget

#46

Post by lucasban »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #21
mc32 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The dollar became the world currency by accident after the OPEC started pricing petroleum in dollars. We're starting to see a slow departure from that. If we did not spend those extra tens of billions per year in projecting power, we could better serve our students, workers, retirees, infrastructure, etc. Instead, they go to ensuring Japan, Korea, Philippines, etc. don't have to spend so much on defense. As China asc…

> I'd be happy [if China] were the ones keeping shipping lanes for their own exports open and not us History's not on your side for that one. You're talking about the country that, plagued by pirates disturbing its coastal shipping, went to massive expense to construct an enormous system of inland canals running parallel to the coast that the pirates couldn't reach. If Chinese merchants wanted the sea kept clear, say…

I hardly think the situation a few hundred years ago is relevant to their ability to secure their modern shipping lines

Re: Guam: The America that Americans forget

#47

Post by throw47474777j »

sreejithr wrote: post #41
throw47474777j wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you saying the natives didn’t fight back?

I’m not saying that. Natives did fight back. Just like the brave Ukrainians.

It is possible to both agree with fighting back and trying to keep the peace such as it exists, and at the same time realize it’s obviously absurd to try to undo all the aggressions stretching back through history.

Re: Guam: The America that Americans forget

#48

Post by jakear »

sreejithr wrote: post #32
jakear wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Talk when you've given your house back to whatever native people were there before you. Or should you give it to the "native" people that were there before them? Or the ones before those ones? Or maybe just accept that the one constant of life is everyone takes everyone else's shit if/when they can/want.

> Or maybe just accept that the one constant of life is everyone takes everyone else's shit if and when they can and want. Sure. But if this is normal, why is it so hard to accept what Russia is doing to Ukraine? Just because evils were done in the past, doesn’t mean we should just accept it as universal truths and continue doing the same things to others (islanders). If you accept that Russia is wrong, then invading…

I do not consider the stated material conditional logically invalid.

Re: Guam: The America that Americans forget

#49

Post by sreejithr »

throw47474777j wrote: post #47
sreejithr wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not saying that. Natives did fight back. Just like the brave Ukrainians.

It is possible to both agree with fighting back and trying to keep the peace such as it exists, and at the same time realize it’s obviously absurd to try to undo all the aggressions stretching back through history.

Of course it’s impossible to undo evils of the past. I’m talking about the present though. The islanders shouldn’t be invaded for “power projection” because they are human beings too. It’s pretty much the same thing Russia is doing.

Re: Guam: The America that Americans forget

#50

Post by coredog64 »

whalesalad wrote: post #34
wayne wrote: post #25

The article touches a little on flight costs, but as someone who'd love to visit sometime and never has, it annoys me how flights to Guam work. Given its location most airlines don't fly direct from the mainland, so many flights to Guam are from Asia. But, you can't buy a ticket from the US with a layover in Japan from JAL or with a layover in Korea from Korean Air because any flight with a US origin to a US destinat…

United goes direct from Honolulu

You can also take the scenic route from HI to RMI to FSM. I can’t think of any reason to hang out in Majuro, but two of the FSM stops are great sightseeing destinations. On Pohnpei you can visit Nan Madol. If you’re into diving, there’s a huge number of Japanese warships sunk near Chuuk.
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