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People Aren't Smart Enough for Democracy to Flourish, Scientists Say

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Re: People Aren't Smart Enough for Democracy to Flourish, Scientists Say

#151

This is definitely true. Representative Democracy systems (and bodies like the Electoral College in the US) try to ameliorate the stupidity of the average voter, but ultimately add complexity and beauracracy to a simple idea (democracy). Let's say I spend a lot of time prior to an election trying to understand the ballot measures and issues and candidates. Come going day, my decision is weighed just as highly as some…

So why not have a meritocracy, where only those deemed informed/an expert/smart enough get a vote?

Multiple reasons:

1. Because our ability to measure g (the general intelligence factor some psychologists think exists and others do not) is somewhere between marginal and nonexistent. Our attempts are better than they were but I don't know of anyone informed on the topic who would claim with a straight face that they're actually good.

2. Because intelligent people can be very, very wrong, and not just that, but wrong in more exciting ways than the average person. Libertarians tend to be intelligent, educated, and wrong about so many things it's barely worth debating them on politics or economics; doctrinaire Marxist Socialists are essentially the same way.

3. Because we're not starting from scratch, here; we're starting this system in an established political and social order, where opportunities for people to game this system as it's being born will be everywhere. If ensuring that my children have a berth on the deluxe class means redefining 'intelligence' to include them, I'll do it without looking back. Most people involved in politics now are like that, if not moreso.

Perhaps finishing HS could earn people a second vote. Finish college, you get a third vote. If you serve in the military, you get an extra vote. Experts in a particular field could get extra votes, etc.

This is so biased towards a certain subculture I don't know where to begin. It's almost tailor-written to cater to middle-class and rich people, predominantly White and Asian, especially those who are not gay or transgender or otherwise going to be effectively locked out of certain preferred careers or lifestyles, such as the military or top-flight schools. It is, in short, precisely what you would implement to turn America into Brazil or the Soviet Union or China, where there is no vertical mobility and birth absolutely determines outcome.

we can't do much worse at picking leaders and making policy decisions than we currently do in the US

I bring Russia, China, and most of Africa to your attention.

Re: People Aren't Smart Enough for Democracy to Flourish, Scientists Say

#152
post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look how many conflicts today have their roots in the decisions and actions of the British Empire Specifically, how they broke things up when they left. In general, wherever they left, things fell apart somewhat. I have talked to several people who believe their country took a turn for the worse when the British left.

The standard operating procedure of the British Empire was "divide and conquer". In order to rule a minority was usually put in a privileged position. It should be no surprise to anyone that when the British left things often become a mess as the minority tries to hold onto power and those previously excluded fight to gain power.

But I would guarantee you that in every single case, the standard of living of the people improved substantially in the medium and long term under British rule.

Re: People Aren't Smart Enough for Democracy to Flourish, Scientists Say

#153
post #147
post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This split between "democracy" and "constitutional republic" is something being pushed more and more, but it's really a fantasy peddled by some US-based politicos with vested interests in devaluing the concept of democracy and making you accept the fact that you should be happy without it. A "constitutional republic" is something defined by a set of laws with certain specific elements in common: having a constitution…

I know more history than the average person, and I totally, utterly disagree with you. From what I understand, the US Founding Fathers explicitly wanted to avoid a democracy, which was seen as an unjust system that punished Socrates and was associated with the downfall of Rome (at one point, the Roman emperors apparently had to essentially feed the populace in order to maintain enough popularity to stay emperor, bank…

Regardless of what they were trying to do, the founding fathers created a democratic system -- who is "we the people", if not literally the "demos" ?

Are laws not written in an assembly by majority vote?

Are you not electing representatives by majority vote?

And this has always been the case in the US system.

See my other post here about the different types of majority and how they can represent different things and/or failing at representing the will of the demos. The fact that the founding fathers were trying to avoid the worst elements of democracy doesn't mean they didn't want a democracy at all; if that was the case, they'd have just nominated a new King and be done with it. No, they were establishing a government by "we the people", which is the exact definition of a democracy. Whether or not they misused the term to indicate the "tyranny of majority", which is a separate concept, does not mean that we should keep misusing it in modern scientific and political debate.

Re: People Aren't Smart Enough for Democracy to Flourish, Scientists Say

#154
post #146
post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If this were true, corporations and rich individuals would own everything. They don't. Uh, there is very little they don't own or control, to be honest. Even if they didn't, assuming the current trend of privatizing even the most essential services continues, it will be the case in just a couple of decades. > Are you having trouble buying groceries because corporations and rich individuals have snapped them all up?…

Do you really think the US healthcare market is a shining example of the Free Market Gone Wrong? The US health system is anything but free market, the government has its influence at every level. To start off with, let's pick on a topic often picked on here, patents: http://www.dklevine.com/papers/imbookfinal09.pdf After you've read that, let's note that I can't as a chemical manufacturer produce any drug I want at a…

People die because they cannot afford insurance. Some people will never be able to afford any insurance because the price they can pay will always be zero.

Thinking everything in life can be self-regulated by market forces is madness. What next, should we buy and sell the right to vote? The right to pray? Why not the right of property itself? Or the right to live?

Re: People Aren't Smart Enough for Democracy to Flourish, Scientists Say

#155
post #154
post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you really think the US healthcare market is a shining example of the Free Market Gone Wrong? The US health system is anything but free market, the government has its influence at every level. To start off with, let's pick on a topic often picked on here, patents: http://www.dklevine.com/papers/imbookfinal09.pdf After you've read that, let's note that I can't as a chemical manufacturer produce any drug I want at a…

People die because they cannot afford insurance. Some people will never be able to afford any insurance because the price they can pay will always be zero . Thinking everything in life can be self-regulated by market forces is madness. What next, should we buy and sell the right to vote? The right to pray? Why not the right of property itself? Or the right to live?

Hold on, you didn't address my point. Do you really think the US system is an example of the free market naturally at work and at failure? Given that you've responded can I assume you read the linked PDF so that we have a broader base of shared context?

You seem to be putting words into my mouth; I may indeed believe that for a world where market forces are the only forces, that world is a better one than our current world, but I don't see how you would arrive at that from my above comment alone. There are plenty of people who see the obvious problems that for instance patents in the health industry cause yet don't want to remove all regulation or government influence in the industry. For my own views of the FDA specifically, I think it's important to have an agency whose word the public can trust that a particular drug or whatever is "safe". But such an agency doesn't have to be public, and in any case its power should closer resemble the ESRB's power rather than the FDA's current power (which unless I missed something over the past decade has included the power to arrest anyone at gunpoint who tries to sell an orange on the premise that it prevents a disease like scurvy).

Since you did ask it, this rhetorical question does have an interesting answer you're probably not aware of:

> What next, should we buy and sell the right to vote?

This seems to be working pretty well for corporations. Extrapolated to a government leads to neocameralism: http://distributedrepublic.net/archives/2008/12/18/rampant-m...

Re: People Aren't Smart Enough for Democracy to Flourish, Scientists Say

#156
post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look how many conflicts today have their roots in the decisions and actions of the British Empire Specifically, how they broke things up when they left. In general, wherever they left, things fell apart somewhat. I have talked to several people who believe their country took a turn for the worse when the British left.

The standard operating procedure of the British Empire was "divide and conquer". In order to rule a minority was usually put in a privileged position. It should be no surprise to anyone that when the British left things often become a mess as the minority tries to hold onto power and those previously excluded fight to gain power.

This was also how the Romans did it, and a thousand years later, everyone agrees that the Roman legacy was a net good. Same is true, and will be said, of the British empire.

Re: People Aren't Smart Enough for Democracy to Flourish, Scientists Say

#157
post #71

Democracy isn't about putting the BEST people in power, or taking the BEST decisions. It's about WHO choses what it's "the best". The majority should choose, period. Everything else is "I know better than other people what they SHOULD want". Even if you "know better" by some objective criterium, it should not be up to you to decide. Because government is about choosing what people WANT not what is BEST for them.

Why should the majority always have power over minorities?

Only in cases where you can't have it both ways.

If the majority wants to build a bridge, and a minority doesn't, well, the majority gets their say.

For one, this makes the most people (the "majority", nudge nudge) get what they want.

For another, if it all comes down to raw power struggle, i.e hitting each other, the majority will win anyway. Voting is a way to ensure you get the above effect without the blood.

Consider also that for different courses of action, what is a majority and what is a minority changes. You can be pro "more taxes" and a majority, and also pro "legalize marijuana" (and a minority at that --just an example, doesn't mean the maj/min it talks about is accurate).

Re: People Aren't Smart Enough for Democracy to Flourish, Scientists Say

#158
post #90
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

However, I do think it's true that people aren't smart enough for democracy What does that even mean? The majority of the people are not to be trusted with judging how to run their country, so we have to put intermediaries and dilute the majority's will?

batista, I think you have a penchant for arguing with me :-) I think the right way to go is a constitutional republic, in which the "way the country is run" is strictly defined ahead of time. Then, the elected representatives have to act within those strict parameters. You could call the constitution an "intermediary that dilutes the majority's will" if you want. I certainly belive that individual rights have to be p…

batista, I think you have a penchant for arguing with me :-)

Hah, I didn't even notice the name, was just urged to argue!!! ;-)

Keep in mind that everyone is part of a minority sometimes, and everyone is part of a majority sometimes. Depends on the issue.

Yeah, that's what I commented just now above. You have to allow for protections to the minorities for this very reason, but not for all individual rights. As a farfetched, but real example, not for, say, NAMBLA rights.

Re: People Aren't Smart Enough for Democracy to Flourish, Scientists Say

#159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should the majority always have power over minorities?

Only in cases where you can't have it both ways. If the majority wants to build a bridge, and a minority doesn't, well, the majority gets their say. For one, this makes the most people (the "majority", nudge nudge) get what they want. For another, if it all comes down to raw power struggle, i.e hitting each other, the majority will win anyway. Voting is a way to ensure you get the above effect without the blood. Cons…

You originally said 'the majority should choose period', not 'the majority should choose only in cases where you can't have it both ways'.

If democracy somehow limited itself to cases where you can't have it both ways, that would be great.

It doesn't.

Re: People Aren't Smart Enough for Democracy to Flourish, Scientists Say

#160
post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The standard operating procedure of the British Empire was "divide and conquer". In order to rule a minority was usually put in a privileged position. It should be no surprise to anyone that when the British left things often become a mess as the minority tries to hold onto power and those previously excluded fight to gain power.

But I would guarantee you that in every single case, the standard of living of the people improved substantially in the medium and long term under British rule.

The standard of living might have improved for the descendants of those that survived but what about those who had to undergo generations of subjugation or slavery or worse? What about those wiped out? In other words at what cost was this long term improvement gained?

Are the Aborigines or US native indians actually better off?

For me the benefits of British rule are very mixed and to argue that the conquered are better off ignores the costs borne in the past. Additionally, we cannot say how things might have been if people had been allowed to develop naturally and trade under normal circumstances.

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