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People Aren't Smart Enough for Democracy to Flourish, Scientists Say

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Re: People Aren't Smart Enough for Democracy to Flourish, Scientists Say

#141
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I honestly think this is the best piece of rhetoric to keep our old system in place. The system is awful, but its the best we got. I'd prefer if we brought back our philosophers and started to have large debates on the writing of new law. We are to afraid to change our old old system. Depressing.

The bigger problem is that the only folks who can improve the system(the people in charge), have an active self-interest not to do that since they are likely to lose power and influence with the changes. That's why the US Congress has an approval rating worse than herpes [1] and still most people will keep their jobs thanks to lack of reform, redistricting and gerrymandering by the only people who can fix it. [1] htt…

One of the best Italian artists of all time, Giorgio Gaber, said once that "Democracy is Participation", or "taking part". Check the number of active voters in the US at most levels: it's depressingly low. Low participation means less democracy, it's as simple as that.

Most people thought it would have been impossible for a black man to be President of the United States of America, but for once "the people" thought differently, you got the highest turnout ever for a presidential race, and lo and behold, change happened (at least for that particular thing).

Try to imagine how things would change if you could add another 10 or 20% to that 63% who elected a black President. Now repeat that at any level: Congress, State, City, even school board. All of a sudden you have a decisive element that can change majorities and express real power.

The problem, of course, is that "taking part takes time". Politics is a very slow game, and most people have a life outside of politics, so they drop out (me included). Even voting every few years is a problem, if you can't afford to take a day off; most European countries recognize that, and vote over the weekend. I find the US stance on this incredibly maddening, and clearly a legacy from the dark times of slavery and "gentlemen" landowners who didn't have to work for a living.

The problem, going forward, is how to give people the opportunity to take part more and more, while minimizing the time they have to spend in order to do so. One of them is having a good set of impartial media who can summarize honest arguments in a faithful way, providing different levels of analysis that don't contradict themselves. Another one might be some sort of collaborative service where people can contribute to the work of their representatives. Another might be a way of making representatives more accountable and in tune to the wishes of their electorate. And so on and so on... but nothing of this can happen unless we take part and move our ass, so to speak.

Re: People Aren't Smart Enough for Democracy to Flourish, Scientists Say

#142
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In certain other countries the majority would find the "average American voters'" perspective on issues like economics or climate change quite strange. I can think of countries where there seems to be an almost universal acceptance of global warming but a poor acceptance of free market principles, for example. My hypothesis is that in the long run education systems have a big impact on what average voters think; and…

Actually, lots of schools in parts of the UK are very keen on promoting a "national identity" - just not a "UK identity". When you have parts of the UK whose own (unofficial) national anthem is about a 700 year old war against other parts of the UK then it no wonder that a single "national identity" has never really caught on.

Regional nationalism is quite common. "O Flower of Scotland", "The South Shall Rise Again", "Euskadi Ta Askatasuna" ...

Re: People Aren't Smart Enough for Democracy to Flourish, Scientists Say

#143
post #23

This is what happens when one person writes an article, and another writes a link bait title. Here is the concise version. The well-known Dunning-Kruger effect says that the less competent people are, the less they are able to recognize competence. Someone named Mato Nagel used this as the basis of a toy computer model of democracy. The result of his simulations is that the leaders selected by democracy are only slig…

We can't know for sure that said candidates really believe in what they're saying, politicians always try to express opinions that will resonate with the voters.

Re: People Aren't Smart Enough for Democracy to Flourish, Scientists Say

#144
post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Democracy is about "putting power into cage" and splitting cake " Well, no. What you're describing is a Republic. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic It's often confused because most democracies are also republics.

A constitutional monarchy does all those things. And they are not republics, but can be democracies.

True, I stand corrected :) .

What I wanted to say is that the OP was describing a divison of powers as commonly seen in a Republic, it was not something inherent in a democracy.

Re: People Aren't Smart Enough for Democracy to Flourish, Scientists Say

#145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Democracy is about "putting power into cage" and splitting cake " Well, no. What you're describing is a Republic. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic It's often confused because most democracies are also republics.

All republics that actually are republics are democracies; true republican government is a form of democracy.

All republics might be democracies, but not all democracies are republics, which was my point:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_democracy

http://lexrex.com/enlightened/AmericanIdeal/aspects/demrep.h...

Re: People Aren't Smart Enough for Democracy to Flourish, Scientists Say

#146
post #135
post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In reality, "a customer" is whoever pays the most money for something you are selling. In the modern world, this would be corporations and rich individuals, not "the people". If this were true, corporations and rich individuals would own everything. They don't. Also, if it were true, nobody but corporations and rich individuals would be able to buy anything. Are you having trouble buying groceries because corporati…

> If this were true, corporations and rich individuals would own everything. They don't. Uh, there is very little they don't own or control, to be honest. Even if they didn't, assuming the current trend of privatizing even the most essential services continues, it will be the case in just a couple of decades. > Are you having trouble buying groceries because corporations and rich individuals have snapped them all up?…

Do you really think the US healthcare market is a shining example of the Free Market Gone Wrong? The US health system is anything but free market, the government has its influence at every level. To start off with, let's pick on a topic often picked on here, patents: http://www.dklevine.com/papers/imbookfinal09.pdf After you've read that, let's note that I can't as a chemical manufacturer produce any drug I want at any quantity I want and sell it, and as a consumer I can't buy any drug I want even out-of-country, where in a free market I could do both these things. People die waiting for new drugs or procedures to go through the process, it's not uncommon for people to go out of country to a US-trained doctor to have the procedure/treatment because it's illegal in the US. Some free market we have.

Re: People Aren't Smart Enough for Democracy to Flourish, Scientists Say

#147
post #139
post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Democracy" just means "majority rule." In a democracy, the majority can trample the rights of the minorities. In a constitutional republic, those rights are protected by a constitution that is very difficult to amend. America today is somewhere between a true democracy and a true constitutional republic. Officially, it is a constitutional republic, and most of the key individual rights are protected (free speech, et…

This split between "democracy" and "constitutional republic" is something being pushed more and more, but it's really a fantasy peddled by some US-based politicos with vested interests in devaluing the concept of democracy and making you accept the fact that you should be happy without it. A "constitutional republic" is something defined by a set of laws with certain specific elements in common: having a constitution…

I know more history than the average person, and I totally, utterly disagree with you.

From what I understand, the US Founding Fathers explicitly wanted to avoid a democracy, which was seen as an unjust system that punished Socrates and was associated with the downfall of Rome (at one point, the Roman emperors apparently had to essentially feed the populace in order to maintain enough popularity to stay emperor, bankrupting the state).

Rather, they wanted a system that protected individual rights. You know, life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

That is explicitly opposed to a system of rule by the majority or rule by the people.

The US was not supposed to be a democracy.

And regardless of the historical details, why would I want to be ruled by the majority? I want to rule myself, and I have no desire to rule others. That's the only morally proper attitude.

Re: People Aren't Smart Enough for Democracy to Flourish, Scientists Say

#148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about Peter Thiel wanting to make a sea-based libertarian country that doesn't have a democracy because people arn't smart enough to keep it libertarian? (Granted, they could leave by relocating somewhere else, but that is true of most countries anyways.)

the seasteading institute is not only for libertarian countries. The point is to enable experimentation and competition in governments. One group of seasteadders can create a commune, one a voluntary society, one can create a dictatorship...

Come visit Weaselia for the climate, stay because we didn't say you could leave[1].

[1]Weaselia is a wholly-owned subsidiary of Weasel Brand sweatshops.

Re: People Aren't Smart Enough for Democracy to Flourish, Scientists Say

#149
post #23

This is what happens when one person writes an article, and another writes a link bait title. Here is the concise version. The well-known Dunning-Kruger effect says that the less competent people are, the less they are able to recognize competence. Someone named Mato Nagel used this as the basis of a toy computer model of democracy. The result of his simulations is that the leaders selected by democracy are only slig…

"global warming" You can't just include global warming with something like evolution. Global warming (isn't it Global climate change now ;-)) may be happening, but I'm still not convinced it's as man-made as supports would like us to believe. Especially when there is so much money involved in it (many scientists will lose government funding if they don't support it) and all of those emails that came out that were imm…

Where to begin?

First of all, whether you accept it or not, global warming is an accepted part of the scientific consensus. It is not ridiculous for me to include it as an example.

Secondly, whether you think creationism is ridiculous or not, 3 out of 4 of the current Republican candidates have stated that they do not believe in evolution. Creationism is a mainstream belief among Republicans, and (according to polls) widespread among Americans in general. (But Creationists tend to vote Republican.)

Thirdly, I gave an example where Democrats do not accept what standard economics has to say about the effects of government regulation of various kinds of prices, including rents. This is literally economics 101, supply/demand curves show that price regulation results in reduced supply and the creation of a much more expensive black market. The inability to accept facts that do not agree with our world views does not just happen on one side or the other.

And last, as someone else pointed out, you've demonstrated my point. A person with knowledge of, and respect for, the facts we have the most evidence for will be unelectable. Even if you accepted that person's knowledge and ability (which you won't necessarily), you wouldn't want them to be in charge.

Re: People Aren't Smart Enough for Democracy to Flourish, Scientists Say

#150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All republics that actually are republics are democracies; true republican government is a form of democracy.

All republics might be democracies, but not all democracies are republics, which was my point: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_democracy http://lexrex.com/enlightened/AmericanIdeal/aspects/demrep.h...

Right. Democracy is subclassed into Republic and DirectDemocracy; Republic is further subclassed, one such subclass among many being CrownedRepublic, such as the UK.
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