Lifers, Dayjobbers, and the Independently Wealthy: A Letter to a Former Student • Hacker News Board

Re: Lifers, Dayjobbers, and the Independently Wealthy: A Letter to a Former Student

#151

Post by bobthepanda » Wed, Jul 12, 2023, 6:55 PM UTC

nradov wrote: post #136

aidenn0 wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd like to see a list of jobs for which: 1. We generally value as a society 2. Two people both working the job and married to each other cannot afford to raise two children. There are some jobs which we romanticize as being this way (musicians and other artists being a big example), but are we okay with e.g. social workers all either starving, or from wealthy backgrounds?

In most places in the USA, two married social workers can afford to raise two children without starving. It's only a few expensive areas where this is impossible. Employers in high cost areas take advantage of the informal subsidies being discussed here to underpay social workers (as well as other socially valuable occupations such as teachers). But that won't change until the workers move away or switch occupations.…

If they're directly employed by the government, that's one thing. Nonprofit sector is another thing entirely, with generally poorer pay and benefits.

Re: Lifers, Dayjobbers, and the Independently Wealthy: A Letter to a Former Student

#152

Post by abeppu » Wed, Jul 12, 2023, 7:04 PM UTC

aidenn0 wrote: post #87

jiggywiggy wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know a bunch of classical musicians, and while they study and work hard they all have steady gigs for one or more ensembles & orchestra's. From the outside it feels somewhat more doable to be a pro , then a band or solo-artist, since there are quite a few orchestra's around that hire people on a stable basis. Spots are limited, but it's not super hard.

> Spots are limited, but it's not super hard. This depends on the instrument and your location. If you play a popular instrument (say the violin) in a metro area with just one orchestra (some have zero!) then you ain't getting on that orchestra any way short of nepotism. If you live within commuting distance of multiple orchestras, there are more spots, but you still aren't going to be playing violin in the orchestra…

This is definitely not my area, but in other contexts I have heard of blind auditions as being a common practice in orchestras (i.e. people auditioning literally are hidden from view while they play and evaluations are then based only on hearing one play) which improved gender diversity in hiring, but not really racial diversity. How does nepotism work in this system?

Re: Lifers, Dayjobbers, and the Independently Wealthy: A Letter to a Former Student

#153

Post by hitekker » Wed, Jul 12, 2023, 7:08 PM UTC

> It’s because of this harsh reality that romanticizing the lifer lifestyle in 21st century Brooklyn, or any other major American city, as anything other than the struggle it is can be incredibly dangerous. Millennials and Zoomers have been sold the lie that the big cities remain a bastion for cutting edge arts and culture, let alone that they are even livable for working artists. What year do they expect us to believe it is? The New York Times loves to gloat about the local renaissance happening in Bushwick in the Arts Section while covering a tech CEO who recently bought a brownstone in Bed-Stuy for a cool five million in the Real Estate section.

A unique paragraph. People fall in love with a story they’ve never been apart of, never will be apart of, that is told by people who only caught of glimpse of it.

Re: Lifers, Dayjobbers, and the Independently Wealthy: A Letter to a Former Student

#154

Post by wnolens » Wed, Jul 12, 2023, 7:09 PM UTC

tomdell wrote: post #65

ericmay wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> semi-regular panic attacks, persistent existential dread Ha - I’ve known a number of friends who have had this same problem working a “useless 9-5” job and missing out over what they’re passionate about. It’s all about trade-offs.

I definitely still feel sadness and anxiety over the feeling that I'm wasting my life on something I don't care about, but it feels more manageable for me than the earth-shattering feeling of having nothing but one thing and that one thing isn't working out the way I thought it would. Trade-offs indeed.

Thanks for writing this and your previous statement re: panic attacks. It resonates and helps me attribute these feelings.

I once went on hiatus from full-time work to "make it on my own" and after the manic honeymoon period, I found myself stuck between just a similar but shittier local maxima and despair. I've tried to understand this experience but it might just come down to this - that sufficient certainty in some level of security can't be overruled by attitude for too long.

> having nothing but one thing and that one thing isn't working out

After my experience I started to think about my life like a house supported by many pillars. It can withstand one pillar completely breaking, or a few in state of disrepair. But if there's only one or two to begin with (or if most are in disrepair), then when the next one breaks it all comes tumbling. And I might incorrectly attribute my problems to that pillar, when really it's the lack of others.

Re: Lifers, Dayjobbers, and the Independently Wealthy: A Letter to a Former Student

#155

Post by bigie35 » Wed, Jul 12, 2023, 7:10 PM UTC

softfalcon wrote: post #110

lynx23 wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are exceptions to every rule of course, and the situaton has changed significantly with all-software productions, but... If you dig deeper into many electronic music producers bio, you realize they were sort of rich-kids. First and foremost, hardware costs real money. And this is gambling money, since you typically dont know what is going to come out of that project. And secondly, you need sare time on your han…

I know some successful musicians, DJ's, photographers, and videographers. One thing they all have in common? Mommy and Daddy were loaded.

Steve Aoki comes to mind as an example. His family founded the food chain Benihana.

Re: Lifers, Dayjobbers, and the Independently Wealthy: A Letter to a Former Student

#156

Post by solarmist » Wed, Jul 12, 2023, 7:12 PM UTC

WalterBright wrote: post #150

digging wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

your mistake is thinking that there is moral equivalence in stealing from your neighbor vs stealing from a billionaire. and please define what honor means to you in this conversation, we've moved too far past pithiness.

> there is moral equivalence in stealing from your neighbor vs stealing from a billionaire They are the same. You said it yourself: STEALING

I read this as a shortcut phrasing, not meant to be literal.

Doing something that negatively impacts their stock price could be categorized as "stealing" from a billionaire. Is that really stealing?

Purposely infringing on a company's trademarks/copyrights/marketing/etc (I don't mean pirating movies/books/etc) to gain publicity/get started could be called stealing from that company. But I don't consider that immoral in the slightest.

There often isn't simple terminology for discussing these differences, so people use shortcuts like this.

Re: Lifers, Dayjobbers, and the Independently Wealthy: A Letter to a Former Student

#157

Post by verall » Wed, Jul 12, 2023, 7:13 PM UTC

jujube3 wrote: post #134

gibbitz wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Raising two children is a job in and of itself. Considering our children are the future's consumers, you'd think it would pay better. Teaching in public schools would definitely fit in this category.

Teachers can afford to raise children.

This really depends on the state, but in many areas in the south, they cannot.

((Assuming we're talking about the US))

Re: Lifers, Dayjobbers, and the Independently Wealthy: A Letter to a Former Student

#158

Post by debatem1 » Wed, Jul 12, 2023, 7:17 PM UTC

jujube3 wrote: post #134

gibbitz wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Raising two children is a job in and of itself. Considering our children are the future's consumers, you'd think it would pay better. Teaching in public schools would definitely fit in this category.

Teachers can afford to raise children.

Well yeah. Just not their own.

Snark aside, it's hard to imagine how you could raise kids plural on what a teacher makes here in Seattle. Even the absolute top of the teacher salaries here, after 12 promotions and with a PhD, pay about what my very first tech job did, many years and much inflation ago. I would never have tried to raise kids on that money.

Re: Lifers, Dayjobbers, and the Independently Wealthy: A Letter to a Former Student

#159

Post by dxbydt » Wed, Jul 12, 2023, 7:17 PM UTC

Hermitian909 wrote: post #141

CPLX wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because they themselves have outsourced the selection of the music doesn't make it a commodity. It's like saying Michelin-starred restaurants are a commodity. They aren't. Once they are on that list they might be sort of interchangeable to a specific sort of person who just wants a generic "nice" restaurant and picks one off the list when they get to a city. But they're all unique and different in really substan…

Curation happens all the time in commodities. Tomatoes are clearly a commodity, but blemished or misshapen tomatoes (a purely aesthetic concern) are often worth far less and may even be discarded. Much of this process is done by hand (I've done it). Corn is a commodity too, but I buy my sweet corn exclusively from one of a few vendors growing varietals that I enjoy more than what I can get at a super market (the vari…

Exactly this. OP is needlessly beating the horse to death. I have enough graduate microecon credits under my belt to happily declare music is a commodity. You don't have to tick off every single i and t from the microecon literature to meet the standard definition of commodity. Its the intent. I have a curated playlist in the 10s of 1000s, probably way more than the average music listener. I'm listening to music pretty much all the time. Its a commodity. Its a generic song. Its something that I play in the background to block out the pain. There's a lot of pain in my life. So I listen to music to block it out & get on with work. And that's music. Whether its this album or that artiste or whatever is immaterial to me. Its just some background noise that sounds pleasant & blocks out the mental pain of work.

Re: Lifers, Dayjobbers, and the Independently Wealthy: A Letter to a Former Student

#160

Post by isk517 » Wed, Jul 12, 2023, 7:17 PM UTC

bluefirebrand wrote: post #118

motohagiography wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Athletes as well. I don't see how a "husband works in tech" answer is a letdown though, as really, what's a marriage for except creating the circumstances from which to grow. Over the decades my tech jobs have supported grad students, authors, craftswomen, actresses, athletes, among others and it was a pleasure watching them level up and grow. If I were ever to be married, earning enough to support arts or athletic p…

> what's a marriage for except creating the circumstances from which to grow This is absolutely not in line with how most people I interact with seem to view marriage nowadays, especially not my fellow university students back when I attended. From my perspective I think younger people mostly seem to view marriage as restricting, or backward and outdated, not an opportunity for something better. I especially think yo…

I imagine those young people that see themselves being in a position to provide financial support might find marriage restricting, backward and/or outdated.