Earlier quoted context omitted.
Cultural problems within the poorer communities in the US cannot be solved completely internally. Because sadly many of the problems come from systemic racism forcing people into a box of sorts. Escaping that requires overcoming a mountain of challenges. My SO taught in some of these schools, and the circumstances in these communities is tragic. It's a bit like telling prisoners they can all leave if they'd just try…
I don't mean to say that changing a culture/mindset is at all easy. It's just that if the culture were to start changing, I think we would see significant progress in terms of elevating African-Americans to decent socioeconomic standing. The other day there was another HN thread about charter schools, where some people discussed what to do about chronic trouble kids (for lack of a better term). The fact that home lif…
California needs real math education, not gimmicks
371–380 of 386 posts
Re: California needs real math education, not gimmicks
#372Earlier quoted context omitted.
The fact of the matter is that those black immigrants have good educations and are doing well in the US, even if there is perhaps some bias in hiring. I'm talking about outcome here. So shift the culture of African-Americans here to focus on attaining good education, throw in government support and enforce race-blind policies (possibly favor poorer candidates that are acceptable), and I think there will be a similar…
You're fine with comparing African Americans to African immigrants, so let's now compare White Americans to African immigrants: most Americans are not highly skilled, while many African immigrants are. In your words, we should "have the American populace at large match that".
Re: California needs real math education, not gimmicks
#373Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don't mean to say that changing a culture/mindset is at all easy. It's just that if the culture were to start changing, I think we would see significant progress in terms of elevating African-Americans to decent socioeconomic standing. The other day there was another HN thread about charter schools, where some people discussed what to do about chronic trouble kids (for lack of a better term). The fact that home lif…
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It doesn't affect my self-esteem or anything but it's a bit sad that you're making wild accusations about Internet strangers. Chill.
Re: California needs real math education, not gimmicks
#374Earlier quoted context omitted.
You're fine with comparing African Americans to African immigrants, so let's now compare White Americans to African immigrants: most Americans are not highly skilled, while many African immigrants are. In your words, we should "have the American populace at large match that".
Seems like you're trying to get me to say something wrong. Anyways, I see nothing wrong with encouraging skilled work all around. I'm sure there are plenty of things to innovate on. For example, reducing dangerous manual labor or mitigating global warming. Maybe one day we'll be so advanced that few people will need to do work.
Listen, if you honestly thought that saying half the stuff you said was right, then I don't know where to start. Imagine landing an interview for a job that will significantly effect where you can afford to live, what you can provide for your kids, and your ability to retire. Now imagine that your hiring manager is making value judgements about you personally, that are based on unfounded opinions he has about how your "culture", and you're passed over for a candidate that comes from a "culture" that he holds in higher regard. This is a real life scenario for millions of Americans, every single day.
Re: California needs real math education, not gimmicks
#375Earlier quoted context omitted.
Seems like you're trying to get me to say something wrong. Anyways, I see nothing wrong with encouraging skilled work all around. I'm sure there are plenty of things to innovate on. For example, reducing dangerous manual labor or mitigating global warming. Maybe one day we'll be so advanced that few people will need to do work.
> Seems like you're trying to get me to say something wrong. Listen, if you honestly thought that saying half the stuff you said was right, then I don't know where to start. Imagine landing an interview for a job that will significantly effect where you can afford to live, what you can provide for your kids, and your ability to retire. Now imagine that your hiring manager is making value judgements about you personal…
Here:
Result I'm looking for: Decent baseline of financial stability among African-Americans
Objective: Get educational attainment and good employment up
Major factors I think are necessary (for relatively quick results, anyways):
- culture shifts towards focusing on education
- government funds public schools in terms of materials, transportation, teachers, etc.
- reduce college tuition somehow
- race-blind hiring/whatever policies
I'm just trying to justify why I think the culture is important. There is evidence that culture is important. Furthermore, I'm saying that there's currently a lack of that education-focused culture and that's why e.g. Baltimore isn't doing too great even with all the funding.
So you should at most have an issue with
- culture shift necessary (which embodies "current culture not working")
I don't see where your evidence that culture isn't an important factor here is. Also, I'm not here to talk about historic grievances and bias and all that. I'm trying to discuss a way out, not bemoan the current circumstances or hope the world magically changes overnight.
Re: California needs real math education, not gimmicks
#376I feel like the facts are a little thin. It is not really true that "For decades, American math curriculum has followed a standard sequence: arithmetic, algebra, geometry, algebra II, precalculus and trigonometry, and calculus." That may have been the local condition in some places. The high school in my city does not have and has never had any named math course except calculus and statistics. Everything else is just…
For me, New England, early 10s the algebra 1, geometry, algebra 2, precalc, calc was the exact pattern. Edit: despite the name, pre calc was basically entirely trigonometry.
Re: California needs real math education, not gimmicks
#377Before we can fix public education, we need to admit that humans are inherently unequal. Not everyone is at the top of the class in math. It is a teacher's job to bring the kids at the bottom up as high as we can, but some of them will not get it on their first try. That is nature.
Then we need to motivate them. Stop grouping kids into math classes based on what grade they are in. That does not match the workplaces we are preparing them for. Instead, we need to group them by interests. Let me teach a class of kids who truly love cars. I'll bring an old engine in and start teaching them arithmetic, geometry, and algebra.
Let me teach a class of kids who want to be streamers and YouTubers. I'll use DSLRs and Premiere Pro to teach them arithmetic, geometry, and algebra. They will learn the same math as the future mechanics, but they will not use the same examples.
Let me teach a class of kids who love money to do the accounting for the auto shop kids.
The only problem with grouping them by ability is that most (85%) of public school students have the intellectual curiosity of tomatoes. They love only app games and music. They are vegetables. The fix to that is to kick them out and let them try to earn a living until they (the ones that survive) come home and beg for a chance to learn enough to earn a living. Then they will pay attention in class.
We need to incentivize the learning of these public schools students while we kick their inflated egos out from under them. They think they are smart enough to be the CEO of Intel. We need to call them on that. Let's see them earn their lunch money replacing the shocks on cars, creating marketing videos for Fiverr clients, or keeping track of the accounting for the other classes. I'll teach them what they need to know.
Above all, do not let anyone supervise a teacher who is not qualified to teach that subject. Public schools prepare principals to run high schools in 4 steps: First, have them teach kindergarten for a year. Second, be an elementary school principal for a year. Third, be a junior high principal for a year. Fourth, be a high school principal. Imagine if the head of OpenAI started doing tech support for Microsoft Word, then because a supervisor over Word Tech Support, then moved to be the head of developing Microsoft Office (without being able to code) then move to be the head of OpenAI (without being able to explain what a GAN is.) Seriously. I've had public school bosses who saw no reason to ask the kids to log into the PCs in a computer class. They wanted to see me "teach" meaning talk to the kids without them touching the PCs in a computer class. They were stuck in kindergarten.
Re: California needs real math education, not gimmicks
#378Earlier quoted context omitted.
to some sort of educator of last resort. This might be a private school that specialized in this, or a public school that can not refuse them and is therefore full of bad students.
And how will they get to this educator of last resort? The per child transportation and tuition costs for this educator of last resort will far exceed the amount of the voucher.
I don't see why the cost of an educator should be that much different at school A than B either. It might be even cheaper.
California spends 23k per K-12 student now. You should be able to pay someone 100k to guard 5 jail cells with self study students.
Re: California needs real math education, not gimmicks
#379I went to high school in China, and the Math problems in the US from the same level are literal jokes to us. At the end of the semester, my teacher doesn't have anything else planned for the last class, so just for fun he would find these problems and share with the class :"Now let's look at what American students in your age are dealing with". I remember all of the problems are so dumb that the whole class would had…
That's some top grade propaganda to indoctrinate children there, just like with the authorities suppressing news about the knife attacks on Chinese kindergartens and instead reporting extensively on school shootings in the US to show how safe China is compared to the US. Gotta love the CCP
Re: California needs real math education, not gimmicks
#380Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Seems like you're trying to get me to say something wrong. Listen, if you honestly thought that saying half the stuff you said was right, then I don't know where to start. Imagine landing an interview for a job that will significantly effect where you can afford to live, what you can provide for your kids, and your ability to retire. Now imagine that your hiring manager is making value judgements about you personal…
I don't even know you're drawing these conclusions from what I'm saying. Here: Result I'm looking for: Decent baseline of financial stability among African-Americans Objective: Get educational attainment and good employment up Major factors I think are necessary (for relatively quick results, anyways): - culture shifts towards focusing on education - government funds public schools in terms of materials, transportati…
That is abundantly clear. Here it is in a nutshell: *if* you accept that "culture is important," *then* you cannot have "race-blind hiring/whatever policies," *because* you have already accepted that one culture values hard work more than another culture.
When you reject that "culture is important," then you can hire individuals based on their merits, instead of the opinions you have about their culture. Making decisions about individuals based on opinions you have about their culture is the definition of racism.