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California needs real math education, not gimmicks

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Re: California needs real math education, not gimmicks

#361

Post by cashsterling »

Oh wow... this article resonates with me and is bringing up some stuff for me as a parent.

My son was in the 8th grade the first year or two that CA rolled out this replace Algebra 2 with Data Science. The Piedmont school district selected this ridiculous book for the course that contained only problems, no lessons. I could go into a deep diatribe about this book, and the course design, but it did things like 'use exponents and exponent notation without introducing what exponents are and how they work... un-flipping believable.

I scheduled a parent-teacher meeting to discuss my concerns about the course design and book... and was assured by the assistant principal that the course was designed by experts and the book was carefully selected and was written by professors with expertise in math education. I. got. nowhere.

Here are vents/beefs with our education system today, as it pertains to math & science:

- What the heck happened to using a nice print book? It is understood that people learn better from reading and working with print books. Even in the 'every kid has a phone', screens everywhere, age... I have found this to be true for my kids and other parents have found the same. kids do better at math/science/history working out of a good physical book. Somehow, we can afford iPad's for every kid but we can't afford books?

- the 8th grade math book above was 80 USD for a hard copy, which I bought so I could tutor my son at home... absolutely deplorable. Not only was the book's content garbage... but the paper and print quality was also garbage. Somehow, I can buy a beautiful hardback textbook on an esoteric math topic for as little 50 USD... meanwhile, a 8th grade textbook is reaming the state coffers. We have so much economic capture and profiteering in K-12 education and it is disgusting... all K-12 content should be creative commons licensed and book cost should cover printing costs and meager profit and that's it (think www.openintro.org).

- We have some very special idiots in our public education system and they are "trying out education theories" on our kids, and we are letting them. There was nothing wrong with the math education 20 years ago, or even 40 years ago. Math is hard, that is okay... not everyone has to be a math genius. Learning math well takes time, being kind & compassionate to ourselves / our kids, and appreciating the grind a little bit. Even if there was something wrong with our classical math education, we could look at other countries who are kicking our ass in math education and see what they're doing... hints: teachers are treated/paid better, they use print textbooks with lots of carefully constructed lessons (graphics) and worked examples, gradual introduction of ideas in class with ample time for discussion, lots of spaced repetition, and lots of exercises starting with "very easy", to build confidence and enjoyment of progress/understanding, and moving gradually to more challenging.

This 8th grade books I refer to above was doing absolutely crazy stuff like throwing a couple problems out on average and standard deviation (again, with no lessons in book... just problems) and then, two problems later, asking them interpret box plots (again, without a lesson on box plots)... insanity. Kids in the class were so lost and disheartened; they all felt stupid. I had to keep telling my son, "you're not stupid... this book is completely ridiculous. The people who wrote this book, and the people who selected this book for your class, are out of touch with reality."

Re: California needs real math education, not gimmicks

#362

Post by cjohnson318 »

vacuity wrote: post #350
cjohnson318 wrote: post #349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In theory, African-American communities could be much better off with some drastic changes in culture African-American communities could be a lot better off if they had been able to take advantage of the same veterans benefits programs that white veterans were able to take advantage of, if they had been able to get home loans on the same terms that white counterparts were able to, if Black professionals had been ab…

You're not addressing what I said. I recognize that African-Ammericans are generally very disadvantaged by a multitude of factors that they had no control over. However, a drastic change in culture that embraces education could improve outcomes signficantly, and ample government support could boost this to the point of actual equality being viable in a few generations. I don't remember if it was Kenyan, Nairobi, or o…

I addressed the fact that you're conflating over a hundred years of systematic disenfranchisement with an some imagined flaw in Black culture. I've taught black kids and I've taught white kids, and there is not a cultural difference between them that explains why one group generally succeeds in life, while the other generally flounders.

> I remember reading about certain African-American immigrants being focused on education and doing fairly well

From the Harvard Business Review: "In the United States, where 13.7% of the population is foreign-born, immigrants represent 20.2% of the self-employed workforce and 25% of startup founders". So, this pattern shows up for immigrant communities in general, it is not evidence that Africans off the boat from Africa have a different culture that makes them more likely to succeed than their American counterparts that have lived in America for generations.

The idea that a historically disenfranchised group is unsuccessful due to certain "cultural values" does not hold water. It's just a way to ignore history, and in turn ignore and excuse existing biases.

Re: California needs real math education, not gimmicks

#363

Post by vacuity »

cjohnson318 wrote: post #362
vacuity wrote: post #350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're not addressing what I said. I recognize that African-Ammericans are generally very disadvantaged by a multitude of factors that they had no control over. However, a drastic change in culture that embraces education could improve outcomes signficantly, and ample government support could boost this to the point of actual equality being viable in a few generations. I don't remember if it was Kenyan, Nairobi, or o…

I addressed the fact that you're conflating over a hundred years of systematic disenfranchisement with an some imagined flaw in Black culture. I've taught black kids and I've taught white kids, and there is not a cultural difference between them that explains why one group generally succeeds in life, while the other generally flounders. > I remember reading about certain African-American immigrants being focused on e…

How well are the schools in Baltimore doing with all that money thrown at them?

https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/baltimorecityma...

How did the Chinese immigrants become so prosperous so quickly if not for their cultural values around hard work and education? It's not as if there was affirmative action for them at the time because they were disenfranchised or something.

Education matters. Black immigrants (from Africa, the Caribbeans, etc.) are doing pretty well. There may be some subconscious biases in hiring, but it's not significant.

https://www.pewresearch.org/race-ethnicity/2022/01/20/a-grow...

https://www.pewresearch.org/race-ethnicity/2022/01/20/househ...

I'm not ignoring history. I recognize that African-Americans have been heavily disenfranchised and discriminated against. I'm trying to find a way forward from here. If African-Americans achieve similar educational attainment, I think it's fair to say that we'll be on the path to achieving equality. As they become more successful, fewer people will have undue stereotypes about them. Now the problem becomes initiating the process of betterment. The government should pitch in, but that will do little good without a change in culture. Plants can't grow without light, even if there's plenty of water and nutrients.

Re: California needs real math education, not gimmicks

#364

Post by tdba »

WalterBright wrote: post #83
blindriver wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You fix poverty by educating children and letting them grow up in a safe area free from crime. Educated children get put on the right path in life and lift themselves out of poverty. That's how Asian countries like Japan and Korea pulled themselves out of poverty in the matter of decades. During the 1950s and 1960s, South Korea was one of the poorest countries in the world, and by the 1980s, was considered an economi…

The Soviets had a good public education system. No economic miracle. Japan's and Korea's economic miracles came from embracing free markets. The same thing happened in Vietnam and China. Free markets => prosperity, every time.

Free markets => prosperity is absolutely not true and the consensus view of economic historians moved on from this idea in the 60s.

In the period 1950-2000, Japan, South Korea, Singapore, Taiwan and China all achieved their economic miracles through heavy government intervention in markets to build new industrial capacity, what is sometimes called state capitalism. in the period 1930-1950, Germany, the USSR and the US did the same in rising out of the Great Depression through national mobilization before and during WW2. And well before that, Britain became the world's economic leader in the 19th century in part through state capitalist practices that began in the 18th (e.g. the British East India company) - the British parliament was arguably the most actively interventionist state apparatus in Europe at this time. Many have also argued that Silicon Valley itself emerged from state capitalist actions by the US in its technological and industrial competition with the USSR from 1950-1990.

Free markets certainly have an important role to play, but they usually work best after the heavy lifting has been done by huge investments and interventions on the part of government to create fertile ground for entrepreneurs. That is, the government invests heavily to kick start development, creates a legal framework in which smaller scale enterprises can contribute and reap rewards for themselves, then steps back to allow the market to do its work, adding regulation as needed to keep it running smoothly.

Re: California needs real math education, not gimmicks

#365

Post by cjohnson318 »

vacuity wrote: post #363
cjohnson318 wrote: post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I addressed the fact that you're conflating over a hundred years of systematic disenfranchisement with an some imagined flaw in Black culture. I've taught black kids and I've taught white kids, and there is not a cultural difference between them that explains why one group generally succeeds in life, while the other generally flounders. > I remember reading about certain African-American immigrants being focused on e…

How well are the schools in Baltimore doing with all that money thrown at them? https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/baltimorecityma... How did the Chinese immigrants become so prosperous so quickly if not for their cultural values around hard work and education? It's not as if there was affirmative action for them at the time because they were disenfranchised or something. Education matters. Black immigrants…

> How did the Chinese immigrants become so prosperous so quickly if not for their cultural values around hard work and education?

> Black immigrants (from Africa, the Caribbeans, etc.) are doing pretty well.

You keep attributing immigrant success rates to "cultural values" when they should be attributed to the self-selection process of emigration.

If it is as you say, that a sample of immigrants is representative of their native population and their "cultural values", then you should see comparable poverty rates and earning rates in immigrants' native populations, adjusted for local economies. You do not see that. Immigrants tend to be more enterprising and hardworking, otherwise they would not undergo the immense challenge of immigration in the first place. This whole idea is as absurd as saying that American expats in Berlin or Paris are a representative sample of Americans, and their ability to thrive in another country is reflective of uniquely American "cultural values".

Re: California needs real math education, not gimmicks

#366

Post by vacuity »

cjohnson318 wrote: post #365
vacuity wrote: post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How well are the schools in Baltimore doing with all that money thrown at them? https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/baltimorecityma... How did the Chinese immigrants become so prosperous so quickly if not for their cultural values around hard work and education? It's not as if there was affirmative action for them at the time because they were disenfranchised or something. Education matters. Black immigrants…

> How did the Chinese immigrants become so prosperous so quickly if not for their cultural values around hard work and education? > Black immigrants (from Africa, the Caribbeans, etc.) are doing pretty well. You keep attributing immigrant success rates to "cultural values" when they should be attributed to the self-selection process of emigration. If it is as you say, that a sample of immigrants is representative of…

The fact of the matter is that those black immigrants have good educations and are doing well in the US, even if there is perhaps some bias in hiring. I'm talking about outcome here. So shift the culture of African-Americans here to focus on attaining good education, throw in government support and enforce race-blind policies (possibly favor poorer candidates that are acceptable), and I think there will be a similar outcome: within a few generations, equality should generally be reachable. I think that shift in culture is necessary and isn't widespread in African-American communities today.

> Immigrants tend to be more enterprising and hardworking

Yeah. So have the African-American populace at large match that.

> This whole idea is as absurd as saying that American expats in Berlin or Paris are a representative sample of Americans, and their ability to thrive in another country is reflective of uniquely American "cultural values".

I don't know what the financial situation of those expats are and how hard it is to live in Berlin or Paris, but if it is difficult then hard work is necessary, no? Whether that would be American cultural values is trickier to answer because of the diversity here.

Re: California needs real math education, not gimmicks

#367

Post by lern_too_spel »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #309
lern_too_spel wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then where does the rejected student go with their voucher? Segregating misbehaving students is a feature. Rejecting them is a bug.

to some sort of educator of last resort. This might be a private school that specialized in this, or a public school that can not refuse them and is therefore full of bad students.

And how will they get to this educator of last resort? The per child transportation and tuition costs for this educator of last resort will far exceed the amount of the voucher.

Re: California needs real math education, not gimmicks

#368

Post by cjohnson318 »

vacuity wrote: post #366
cjohnson318 wrote: post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How did the Chinese immigrants become so prosperous so quickly if not for their cultural values around hard work and education? > Black immigrants (from Africa, the Caribbeans, etc.) are doing pretty well. You keep attributing immigrant success rates to "cultural values" when they should be attributed to the self-selection process of emigration. If it is as you say, that a sample of immigrants is representative of…

The fact of the matter is that those black immigrants have good educations and are doing well in the US, even if there is perhaps some bias in hiring. I'm talking about outcome here. So shift the culture of African-Americans here to focus on attaining good education, throw in government support and enforce race-blind policies (possibly favor poorer candidates that are acceptable), and I think there will be a similar…

You're fine with comparing African Americans to African immigrants, so let's now compare White Americans to African immigrants: most Americans are not highly skilled, while many African immigrants are. In your words, we should "have the American populace at large match that".

Re: California needs real math education, not gimmicks

#369

Post by doalldrugs »

vacuity wrote: post #358
paulryanrogers wrote: post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cultural problems within the poorer communities in the US cannot be solved completely internally. Because sadly many of the problems come from systemic racism forcing people into a box of sorts. Escaping that requires overcoming a mountain of challenges. My SO taught in some of these schools, and the circumstances in these communities is tragic. It's a bit like telling prisoners they can all leave if they'd just try…

I don't mean to say that changing a culture/mindset is at all easy. It's just that if the culture were to start changing, I think we would see significant progress in terms of elevating African-Americans to decent socioeconomic standing. The other day there was another HN thread about charter schools, where some people discussed what to do about chronic trouble kids (for lack of a better term). The fact that home lif…

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Re: California needs real math education, not gimmicks

#370

Post by doalldrugs »

vacuity wrote: post #358
paulryanrogers wrote: post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cultural problems within the poorer communities in the US cannot be solved completely internally. Because sadly many of the problems come from systemic racism forcing people into a box of sorts. Escaping that requires overcoming a mountain of challenges. My SO taught in some of these schools, and the circumstances in these communities is tragic. It's a bit like telling prisoners they can all leave if they'd just try…

I don't mean to say that changing a culture/mindset is at all easy. It's just that if the culture were to start changing, I think we would see significant progress in terms of elevating African-Americans to decent socioeconomic standing. The other day there was another HN thread about charter schools, where some people discussed what to do about chronic trouble kids (for lack of a better term). The fact that home lif…

[flagged]
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