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California needs real math education, not gimmicks

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Re: California needs real math education, not gimmicks

#291

Post by thechao »

strix_varius wrote: post #268
wisty wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a major problem is that most education "experts" (the type policy makers listen to, not practicing teachers) are upper-middle-class kids who had their parents teach them the basics of phonics and times tables. Who else would get a PhD in education? They went to school, and found learning these things a massive waste of time, because their parents had already set them up to succeed, but they don't realise it w…

This is not supported by data. Across all universities, the education department represents the bottom of average SAT scores.

The bottom of the average of SAT scores of college attendees is the top 30%+ of students; Master's and PhD's are even more elite. This is like saying "the defensive line in the Cleveland Browns are the worst NFL players in the country": they're still NFL players.

Re: California needs real math education, not gimmicks

#292

Post by oatmeal1 »

goolulusaurs wrote: post #25

In my younger years, particularly during my schooling, I held a deep resentment towards the educational system. It felt overtly clear to me, as a student, that schools failed to effectively foster learning and growth. However, my perspective has evolved over time. I've come to understand that the issues I observed are not unique to the school system but rather characteristic of large institutions as a whole. The perv…

> Unless we find a way to counteract this

Charter schools. Competition. Of course education sucks when there's no competition.

Re: California needs real math education, not gimmicks

#293

Post by lern_too_spel »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #124
lern_too_spel wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, private schools can reject students. This means voting for charter schools.

Rejecting students is a feature not a bug. If you have a student that attacks other students or teachers institutions should be able to expel them.

Then where does the rejected student go with their voucher?

Segregating misbehaving students is a feature. Rejecting them is a bug.

Re: California needs real math education, not gimmicks

#294

Post by perryizgr8 »

The problem is thinking that 5 or 10 or 20 people can decide what is good for millions of kids. Let parents work with teachers and schools to figure out what works for their kids.

The government should shut down all public funded schools. If some people need financial aid to ensure education, provide that aid directly in the form of money or school vouchers.

Schools will spring up with varied teaching philosophies and approaches. Parents can evaluate the available options and enroll their kids wherever they like.

Eventually the best approaches will win out, and even specialisations might emerge. Maybe everyone actually doesn't need to learn arithmetic. But others do. So they would choose the appropriate school and courses.

Re: California needs real math education, not gimmicks

#295

Post by outlace »

theGnuMe wrote: post #267
outlace wrote: post #44

I think we significantly overestimate how much school actually matters compared to family milieus. My wife and I highly value education, so regardless of when the school says children should learn algebra, I am already tutoring my 6 year old in basic algebra. If school did nothing other than be a daycare for my kids so we could work, they'd probably still be better educated than most kids going through public school…

How do you teach your 6 year old algebra?

I'll give her simple problems like "x + 5 = 0, what must `x` be to make this true?" (First had to teach her the number line and negative numbers) or "2*y = 6, what is y?" (Taught her multiplication as a copy-then-add operation, ie she knows that 2*3 means to make 3 copies of 2 and then add them all together. She hasn’t yet learned the times table)

Re: California needs real math education, not gimmicks

#296

Post by [deleted] »

lern_too_spel wrote: post #293
s1artibartfast wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rejecting students is a feature not a bug. If you have a student that attacks other students or teachers institutions should be able to expel them.

Then where does the rejected student go with their voucher? Segregating misbehaving students is a feature. Rejecting them is a bug.

[deleted]

Re: California needs real math education, not gimmicks

#297

Post by ZeroGravitas »

light_hue_1 wrote: post #289
ZeroGravitas wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That was just a Google result that I scanned and found reasonable, so I have no great desire to defend it strongly, but: The economics paper is trying to reconcile the economics orthodoxy of "incentives matter" with the experimental evidence (that it references from across decades) that incentives can in some cases hurt. It's intro is a decent survey of the issue, and has the meta benefit that economists if they coul…

> that it references from across decades) that incentives can in some cases hurt. To be clear, originally you said "extrinsic motivation can negatively impact intrinsic motivation". "Incentives can hurt" is a totally different statement; but I assume you still mean the original. A short digression. As a scientist I think we should teach critical reading skills when it comes to science. This study has a bunch of thing…

Both your papers seem to support my position, that extrinsic motivation can be harmful.

The summary on Wikipedia suggests that there was some arguments about whether this effect was real or not but the consensus is currently that it is:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motivation_crowding_theory#Deb...

> Through the debate, consensus seems to have emerged that crowding out reliably occurs if the following conditions are met:[33][dubious – discuss]

> * Rewards are offered in the context of pre-existing intrinsic motivation (e.g. in a pro-social setting or for interesting tasks).[34]

> * Rewards are known in advance and expected.[35]

> * Rewards are tangible.[36]

Re: California needs real math education, not gimmicks

#298

Post by AmpsterMan »

xvedejas wrote: post #201
cjohnson318 wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we tried that in the form of scholarships. Basically, the students with the highest grades get discounts from different colleges. It's not exactly the same, but the effect is similar, and this system has been running for generations. I think one big problem is that low test scores are highly correlated to poverty. Parents who earn less usually don't have time to help kids with their school work, or don't unde…

Merit scholarships were already out of fashion by the time I was applying for colleges (circa 2010). Especially at more selective schools (those with lower admission rates), merit scholarships have been displaced in favor of diversity scholarships, which I suppose reflects the changing priorities of those schools.

Scholarships also just possibly dried up after the great recession. My wife and I both graduated from same state with similar GPA, though I was 2010, she 2012. We qualified for the exact same scholarship. Mine covered 100% of my tuition, hers 75%.

Re: California needs real math education, not gimmicks

#299

Post by morpheuskafka »

ChainOfFools wrote: post #218
morpheuskafka wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Chinese mathematics education is several years ahead My Chinese gf learned how to analyze simple electric circuits (Ohm's law, reading schematics, etc.) in middle school and was tested on it for high school entrance, even though she was an arts/humanities student. The standards here in NC for middle school science seem to only require knowing that circuits must be closed and insulators/conductors. That would be an…

> In America you can get into university (even a prestigious one) and start off at "College Algebra." It may be possible to get into any given University and start off with college algebra, although I'm not entirely sure about that. However is certainly not the case that you can get into any program at any University and start off at college algebra. Admission requirements for majors are determined by departments res…

True for some universities. My university (Top 30 overall, public) does not consider intended majors as part of undergrad admissions, supposedly. Now, it would be practically challenging for a physics major to start at algebra and get up to calculus soon enough to start the physics classes, but no one would stop you. A few majors require an application in the second year, but those are specialities like journalism, business, library science, not regular STEM majors (except CS as of recently).
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