Stanford Graduate Students Won Their Union Vote • Hacker News Board

Re: Stanford Graduate Students Won Their Union Vote

#191

Post by autoexec » Sat, Jul 08, 2023, 12:31 AM UTC

_aavaa_ wrote: post #177

autoexec wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you bring a grievance or work to rule, there are a million innovative ways your advisor can sabotage you as retaliation. That sounds like exactly the kind of thing a union could address. > I wasn't represented by a union in grad school, but all the commenters here who were have pointed out that their unions didn't fight for higher wages. It's possible that they were fighting for other things considered by most m…

> > They can let you pursue ideas that they know are not novel (and the papers will be rejected). Or suggest you try something they know won't pan out. > That sounds like exactly the kind of thing a union could address. Short of having a group of union members becoming your defacto supervisor and doing the guidance your supervisor should be doing, I don't see how they could help in this situation.

Union puts rules in their contract saying 0 retaliation when grievances are filed or disputes arise, explicitly calling out commonly seen retaliations while still leaving room to account for other sneakiness or else X and if students who have complaints feel retaliated against they can now appeal to the union who (if convinced) proceed to X where X can mean anything from disciplinary action against the supervisor, lawsuits, or strike.

Supervisors who want to avoid X will then be forced to reconsider retaliating against students or at the very least find ways to do it where students don't feel like they're being retaliated against which I suppose is the best you can expect since assholes exist and some percentage of them will end up as supervisors.

Re: Stanford Graduate Students Won Their Union Vote

#192

Post by ETH_start » Sat, Jul 08, 2023, 3:53 AM UTC

light_hue_1 wrote: post #167

ETH_start wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Or maybe, the fact that the overwhelming number of smart people working on making new ideas, new medications, making society better, are left wing is a really good indication that this is a much better approach? Business owners are doing all of those things, and more than half of them are right wing. [1] The average Republican has a higher income than the average Democrat, and this is despite staunchly pro-Democra…

Business owners do not create new medications. Academics do. Business owners manage them. I don't understand. Is this some variant of a conspiracy theory? All academics are working together to groupthink their way to the left? Or maybe. Seriously. The smart people in the room. Who dedicate their lives to improving the world. All pretty much, no matter what subject they study, come to the conclusion that the left is t…

Business owners obviously don't contribute to humanity the same way scientists do, but they do contribute nonetheless. And that's demonstrated by how much higher quality of life is in countries that allow private business ownership.

And in terms of innovations that contribute to improving the human condition: massive amounts of such innovation are required in and produced by business, in mundane activities that don't follow any formal process.

Recognizing the value others provide would help you develop greater humility and a more realistic outlook on the world.

And nothing I forwarded was a conspiracy theory. Groupthink is not the same thing as a conspiracy.

Re: Stanford Graduate Students Won Their Union Vote

#193

Post by tnecniv » Sat, Jul 08, 2023, 4:00 PM UTC

pipes wrote: post #146

Can someone explain this to me, I'm in the UK. What's going on? I thought you paid for college in the USA, but these students are getting money from the university?

PhD students are almost always funded including an annual stipend. The university charges tuition but almost none of them ever see that bill (their advisor or external fellowship does).

Undergrads pay for their education mostly

Re: Stanford Graduate Students Won Their Union Vote

#194

Post by _aavaa_ » Tue, Jul 11, 2023, 2:08 PM UTC

autoexec wrote: post #191

_aavaa_ wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> > They can let you pursue ideas that they know are not novel (and the papers will be rejected). Or suggest you try something they know won't pan out. > That sounds like exactly the kind of thing a union could address. Short of having a group of union members becoming your defacto supervisor and doing the guidance your supervisor should be doing, I don't see how they could help in this situation.

Union puts rules in their contract saying 0 retaliation when grievances are filed or disputes arise, explicitly calling out commonly seen retaliations while still leaving room to account for other sneakiness or else X and if students who have complaints feel retaliated against they can now appeal to the union who (if convinced) proceed to X where X can mean anything from disciplinary action against the supervisor, la…

Yes, I understand the idea of such clauses. My specific argument was that for academia it's very easy for them to retaliate in ways that are very non-obvious as being retaliations, especially to outside observers:

> > They can let you pursue ideas that they know are not novel (and the papers will be rejected). Or suggest you try something they know won't pan out.