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Thunderbird 115

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Re: Thunderbird 115

#321

Post by yetanother12345 »

andix wrote: post #260
precompute wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Information density can be very overwhelming and a factor for stress. Really? And what about tiny scrollbars?

Since we have mouse wheels and touch screens scroll bars transformed mostly away from interactive UI components to scroll position indicators. Good components dynamically get bigger when you hover over them with your mouse or long press they on a touch screen.

> "Since we have mouse wheels and touch screens ..."

Oh, how I hate that use of "we"! Please realize: "YOU" does not equal "EVERYONE"

Personally (sample size 1) I use several different PC-like hardware units for productive work, as well as personal use. These units have different hardware/software/OS in general, but some applications are used cross-platform: Email is one. Hence the need for Thunderbird in the first place. I have been using it for no less than a decade and probably much longer - iow as long as I remember.

The fact is that none (0, zero) of the total amount of hardware units I personally use _at_all_ "... have mouse wheels and touch screens" - not a single one.

I am not a robot! I exist, and I'm a core user of that product (which has become increasingly annoying in multiple ways during the years - way too narrow scroll bars are actually a good example of the dev team undermining usability - but there is no feasible alternative).

It seems the team is operating from some assumptions about user preferences that generally does not include (the likes of) me.

(ADDED: which would be fine if my demands were higher than their aility to deliver, but that is not the case. I only ever use the very basic core functions (read, write, folders; not even search) - no UI features added the past 5-10 years have been relevant for me. All of them have cost me time/productivity as anything new in the UI (no matter how minor) requires a breach of habit and a new learning loop, even if just to ignore said new feature.)

So, for the past couple of years my personal use of email has been on a steady decline. I just tend to avoid that kind of activity when/if I can.

ADDED: Don't preach me webmail in replies please. I did write "there is no feasible alternative" because that was exactly what I ment to say. Same goes for "just join the dev team and make a change yourself". I have actually considered these, but then: There IS NO feasible alternative. And that is the singular reason I still have Thunderbird installed even if used sparingly these days

Re: Thunderbird 115

#322

Post by throw10920 »

nerdponx wrote: post #152
zvmaz wrote: post #116

The tone and level of entitlement of some comments is astonishing. Thunderbird is a free and open source tool, used by many (including me). The least we can do is to be a little nicer.

I'm downvoting them as I see them. Donate or contribute or offer constructive feedback, don't just complain.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with complaining about a piece of software.

Re: Thunderbird 115

#323

Post by actuallyalys »

throw10920 wrote: post #322
nerdponx wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm downvoting them as I see them. Donate or contribute or offer constructive feedback, don't just complain.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with complaining about a piece of software.

I think it's reasonable to criticize a piece of open source software, especially one backed by a non-profit, but not to be entitled or mean-spirited about it.

Re: Thunderbird 115

#324

Post by yetanother12345 »

nerdponx wrote: post #308
pmontra wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I download from Thunderbird and the messages are gone from the server of the provider. Of course I keep them there when I download in K9.

That's a disadvantage to me, because I pay my email provider in part for the reliability of not losing my emails, and also because I tend to access my email from several different devices and I want to make sure everything is synchronized. What's the advantage of downloading them all locally?

Not the guy you're asking, but I prefer POP3 over IMMAP for the exact same reasons as you pay a third party: "reliability of not losing my emails, and also because I tend to access my email from several different devices and I want to make sure everything is synchronized"

The difference is that with the third-party approach, the third party is really a risk factor of unknown magnitude (even if trusted and paid). With the "local" approach you are in full control.

Re: Thunderbird 115

#325

Post by seanmcdirmid »

LoganDark wrote: post #248
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good ones are around $400, really . A 4K for $100 would be like a 40 inch screen with a horrible PPI.

> A 4K for $100 would be like a 40 inch screen with a horrible PPI. My 4K monitor was $70 and is 15 inches so, not sure where you got that figure from. (You're right that $400 is better though, that would get me a touchscreen OLED. Unfortunately I don't have that much money yet~)

A 15 inch 4K for $70? I would love to see that, no matter the quality.

Re: Thunderbird 115

#326

Post by yetanother12345 »

velosol wrote: post #185
andix wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the UI platform you're using supports themes, this can usually be fixed with that. Provide one default theme that looks perfectly polished, and another more compact one for power users.

Which do you default to for someone coming from years of Thunderbird usage? How in-your-face is compact mode toggle in the ootb experience for a fresh install? And sadly how many people are going to be new to Thunderbird these days? If I got the 'polished' version as part of the normal update cycle I'd be upset that my tight, space-efficient and incredibly responsive productivity app had decided to use a design langu…

>"If I got the 'polished' version as part of the normal update cycle I'd be upset"

Thanks! Glad you mentioned it! On Linux the Thunderbird update is just one among many other updates in an update batch, so usually it will just be installed with the rest of the updatable items. I will have to pay attention now, so I don't install this unwittingly.

> "The point of email is to communicate information"

Deserves repetition.

> have to interact with the UI

This interaction is a cost, and you pay. I like mine cheap.

Re: Thunderbird 115

#327

Post by yetanother12345 »

Open-Sourcery wrote: post #32
pshirshov wrote: post #23

> unified folders Actually that's the worst anti-feature for an email client.

As long as there is a way to disable it, or there is a unified view along with the individual email views. I quite like unified views considering I have three email accounts I need to view, and I don't see the downside of this view as long as when I reply, it automatically replies from the address it was sent to.

> as long as when I reply, it automatically replies from the address it was sent to.

In my experience this is NOT always the case. I handle multiple accounts using unified view, and I've had a _lot_ of "accidents" where I replied from another address than the email address that the email was sent to.

Meaning: an email sent to me at one email address may get a reply (possibly with the email text quoted inside) - from a totally different and unrelated email address. Without me actively selecting a "different" reply account.

For a while it seemed the rule is that you reply using the account you used the last time you interacted with the app (the "last active" account -ish). It really seemed to be the rule, not the exception. I'm not sure if this was/is "by design" or "a bug"

T(hings like t)his is one of the reasons I use email/Thunderbird less these days. The cost per time unit has increased and the risk of uncontrolled events likewise.

Of course account switching is desired in some situations, so this should be possible. With some minor difficulty - at least some sort of minor deliberate action should be needed like click a list to change sender email address away from recipient email address. It should not be default behaviour.

Re: Thunderbird 115

#328

Post by yetanother12345 »

hendersoon wrote: post #277
danpalmer wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my experience most communities like this are quite unreceptive to feedback – both in hoops you have to jump through to give it, and in terms of attitude from maintainers. I haven't engaged with the Thunderbird feedback process so this may be unfair to them, but it's a broad perception I have and so I think organisations that do want the feedback or do want first-time contributors need to push hard to make that hap…

I have engaged with it. They definitely aren't receptive and development moves excruciatingly slowly, but I wouldn't attribute that to being negative so much as strictly limited resources. Thunderbird is what it is; if you find it useful in its current incarnation use it (I do), but don't expect it to noticeably improve at the rate we've come to anticipate from other open-source projects. Even though Thunderbird is v…

> "it just doesn't move very quickly."

Which is an advantage, not a problem. I do not change my user behaviour regarding email often (if at all), so I really have no need or desire to see the tool I use for email changing (at all).

Every change brings with it a cost that the user must pay.

Re: Thunderbird 115

#329

Post by trog »

kevincox wrote: post #105
artogahr wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because I like all my email in one place basically. I don't want to hunt for tabs whenever I'm looking for specific mail account, mentally all my mail is behind one icon separate from my browser, and they all look and work the same. Also maybe not Gmail but aside from that IMHO Thunderbird offers better UX than all other browser mail apps.

Personally I hate GMail. 1. Threads are collapsed into a 1-dimensional list making moderately complex discussions hard to follow. 2. Deleting many messages is very slow. With Thunderbird I can mash while scanning subjects and pause for a second to see the actual message body. I get a lot of email that I need to sort through or be aware of so my morning generally consists of quickly (15min) going through up to 100 con…

> 1. Threads are collapsed into a 1-dimensional list making moderately complex discussions hard to follow.

You can disable this - it's called "Conversation mode" and you can turn it off. Many of my colleagues have it off as they find it unusable due to their workflow (they often end up with threads with 50-100 emails in them & conversation mode makes it painful).

(Be aware that Conversation mode is required for some tools/plugins/extensions to work though.)

Re: Thunderbird 115

#330

Post by trog »

PurpleRamen wrote: post #229

Has Thunderbird still proper support for local mailboxes? I recently tried this, and all I found was local folders in maildir or mbox-format. But this won't recognize new mails added to them, making it useless for this demand. Did I miss something, or was this really removed at some point?

What do you mean by "new mails added to them"? I have Thunderbird set up with old emails I imported from Outlook Express in local folders and it seems to work fine. I don't really add new emails into them very often but I'm pretty sure it's fine?
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