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Once hailed for decriminalizing drugs, Portugal is now having doubts

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Re: Once hailed for decriminalizing drugs, Portugal is now having doubts

#621

Post by fragmede »

knightofmars wrote: post #589
DropInIn wrote: post #544

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Theres no need to guess, we can just look to before it was prohibited. And it was alcohol that was worse. Most people don't care to use it (heroin) at all let alone regularly. Opiates cause nausea and retching in most areas drug abuse levels.... Alcohol was far more popular and consistently harmful... Just ask the wives of the time what they'd rather thier husbands use....

Alcohol is a potential catalyst and not a cause in these situations. There are underlying problems with people's psyche that lead to abusive outcomes. Add in centuries of religion supporting and encouraging the beating of wives and children who don't submit it's no wonder we as a species ended up where we are. Even Ghandi who was teetotaler hit his wife. Point being, like anything, it's complex. Yes, alcohol is a fac…

If you think harmful things it doesn't count. it's only when thoughts are verbalized or become actions that there's a problem. Where a person, when sober, isn't abusive and doesn't hit people, but does when drunk, is say alcohol is the cause. if they're mean abusive drunks who can lay off the sauce, then they're actually okay people and it doesn't matter that they're mean and abusive when drunk.

I say this as the grandchild of an alcoholic. Alcohol is the problem. You're right that there're underlying things, but they lie there, just beneath the surface, mostly untouched and undisturbing without alcohol.

Re: Once hailed for decriminalizing drugs, Portugal is now having doubts

#622

Post by orangepurple »

thriftwy wrote: post #365
orangepurple wrote: post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Their numbers may be much greater if housing were guaranteed.

I am not 100% sure what the NGOs do when they arrive in NYC but it seems that they do get hotel rooms fully paid for by the NGOs. What is more surprising is the huge amount of new stuff they purchase and discard. The whole thing is completely orchestrated by people and organizations with HUGE amounts of money. I don't understand what they are trying to accomplish. I don't fully understand how the migrants can afford to waste so much either, it's insane: https://t.me/retardsoftiktok/15550

Re: Once hailed for decriminalizing drugs, Portugal is now having doubts

#623

Post by thriftwy »

Broken_Hippo wrote: post #588
thriftwy wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A billion people across the world may want a house "as right" in San Francisco. It may only fit three order of magnitudes people realistically, though.

Why would the right to housing stop in san francisco? Most places can do this. The US can do it. Everything contrary is just excuses.

San Francisco has better placement than 99,9% of Earth.

Most of places on Earth has snow, heat waves, no coasts, biting insects, or a combination of that. They are also not located in the richest country, in a place which historically produces jobs.

So, under this regime specifically San Francisco will get population influx until it is not usable for absolute majority of people (think a bro dormitory the size of SF), and that process will be repeated for many other lucrative locations on Earth (heck, many cities are arguably already going that route).

I don't see how free housing differs from sacrificing every place you like to tragedy of the commons on grand scale, until there is nothing for you to like there anymore and you move on yourself.

Other than that, there are places on Earth with basically free housing. Check out Vorkuta.

Re: Once hailed for decriminalizing drugs, Portugal is now having doubts

#624

Post by za3faran »

Broken_Hippo wrote: post #614
za3faran wrote: post #596

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the approach of trying to address the symptoms and not the cause. I also mention homicides in my post, but some people are conveniently ignoring it. The dangers of alcohol have been well documented.

In general, me drinking a beer doesn't harm you, though. At all. And this is true for the vast majority of people. I suspect you think the cause is the alcohol: But realistically, it is that people don't always plan ahead. As far as drunk driving is concerned, robust transport would be a step in the right direction. Especially in the countryside and small towns - in the US, these are filled with bars but no transport…

All it takes is one drunk driving incident or one drunken homicide incident to turn your life around, which I hope no one has to face. Majority or no majority, the facts and statistics speak quite well about the topic. As discussed in another thread about prohibition of alcohol, the main solution is to change the perception of people and have a common goal to get behind. Life will always be stressful. As an anecdote, today due to many factors including continued occupation and external meddling, even the most war torn countries in the Middle East such as Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan continue to have very low suicide rates, and drinking is not something common as it is prohibited in Islam.

Re: Once hailed for decriminalizing drugs, Portugal is now having doubts

#625

Post by fragmede »

l1tany11 wrote: post #478
comfortabledoug wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about the other quotes from the article that have nothing to do with funding... > “When you first back off enforcement, there are not many people walking over the line that you’ve removed. And the public think it’s working really well,” said Keith Humphreys, former senior drug policy adviser in the Obama administration and a professor of psychiatry at Stanford University. “Then word gets out that there’s an open…

Alcohol is an interesting parallel. Probably most people know, or know of someone who is an alcoholic. How many of them want to quit? How many think they have a problem? It’s not surprising that many addicts of other drugs don’t seek treatment. It’s like obesity. Just stop eating so much! Just stop drinking! Just stop smoking crack! Just say no! How well is that going? Human psychology is nuts. Big is beautiful! Trac…

Which sort of thing? Capitalism? Because the article we're commenting on is about the privatization and the cutting of funding to the systems that are necessary to support the legalization of heroine and cocaine. We have problems with the government privatizing industries everywhere there is capitalism.

Solving drug addiction as a society in the world is possible if the western world had the political capital to do so. But like you said, human psychology is nuts. the thing to look at is Hong Kong back in '97. 1897, that is. It was a British colony in the wake of the Opium wars, for 100 years. The allure of being high on opium was a significant drag on the economy and the Chinese government wasn't putting up with that. While they lost the war, and Hong Kong's current political situation is fraught, a country fighting an enemy, the British, is able to unite in a way that war against concepts like war or poverty can't. (Communism is an exception because there were countries with that system to unite against.

We'll note that opium dens still exist, but not in the same capacity as before, and while China also has its share of drug addicts, they don't have downtown Philly or San Francisco.

So how do we fight it? Well, a war on drugs, but not one fought by men with guns and illegalization and demonization, but one fought by therapists and psychologists, with harm reduction and governmental and societal support. It's a radically different shape of society if the government genuinely cares about its people. You'd have to give everyone housing and feed everybody. and not just a subsistence living but thriving community. Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness can't be had without a life worth living, and a life without hope for a better future is not worth living.

Re: Once hailed for decriminalizing drugs, Portugal is now having doubts

#626

Post by fragmede »

mike4ty4 wrote: post #518
andrepd wrote: post #445

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those "other quotes" are personal hunches and random people on the street? "I asked random people on the street", really? Come on... The simple fact is that after drug decriminalisation in 1999 the number of (1) new HIV infections and (2) overdose deaths fell to less than half in a couple years. After cuts in funding, it started performing worse. Who would have think.

Yep, exactly - get rid of the alternative methods and leave no method and then that's a problem.

which, governments behave stupidly because that's patiently obvious but what did the US do with that opioid crisis? got rid the method, oxycontin, left no legal supported method, leading to street heroin, and hey guess what we have a huge problem with today.

Re: Once hailed for decriminalizing drugs, Portugal is now having doubts

#627

Post by galfarragem »

P_I_Staker wrote: post #612
galfarragem wrote: post #310

It's so annoying to read over and over this BS about the success of Portugal's old policies on drugs. It is blatantly false. I grew up in a top drug spot in Portugal. Things were bad, really bad. I would say that worse was impossible, every extended family had drug problems. After the early 90's peak, slowly it got better, addicts' younger brothers and neighbors had real examples. Doing drugs was not "cool" anymore.…

What you're talking about sounds just like the eb and flow of drug markets everywhere. So the policy did nothing either way? Far fewer people were incarcerated? That seems like a net positive and smashing success to me. Portugals policies were a success. It's blatantly true.

Despite the law, hardly ever (if ever), anyone was incarcerated because of consuming drugs. Addicts always were jailed because of petty crime. Police couldn't manage to enforce it so government just ditched it.

Like I said before, politicians always take positive results as their own but their influence here was negligible. I was there living next door, the cycle just passed. Now it's coming back and the policies are exactly the same but if you prefer to romanticize it, go ahead.

Re: Once hailed for decriminalizing drugs, Portugal is now having doubts

#628

Post by dang »

pc_edwin wrote: post #470
pc_edwin wrote: post #406

[flagged]

I just don't get how is this not obvious. There are a lot of seriously SICK or DISREGULATED people who are ILLEGALLY staying in PUBLIC AREAS causing PUBLIC HARM. They are taking part in ILLEGAL activities that are generally degenerate, indecent and uncivilised. Any normal functioning society handle this with a proportionate response and its really really simple. YOU REMOVE THESE PEOPLE FROM SOCIETY. They forfeited th…

"Please don't fulminate."

"Please don't use uppercase for emphasis. If you want to emphasize a word or phrase, put asterisks around it and it will get italicized."

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.

Re: Once hailed for decriminalizing drugs, Portugal is now having doubts

#629

Post by fragmede »

rscrawfo wrote: post #337
Broken_Hippo wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tent cities don't exist solely in places without access to housing "Access to housing" isn't enough. You might have "access" to health care but unable to afford it. You need housing as a right - even without payment - alongside enough adequate housing for everyone. And allow folks to do things in their own home. If they cannot do it at their home with other people, the person in question does not have adequate housin…

This is a real question, not a retort. But I have known addicts, they don’t exactly take care of their things. It’s very easy to imagine that much of the state supplied housing would quickly become unsafe and or destroyed. How do you handle that?

it becomes assisted living, like for seniors. they can't live like that, so you get a maid service in every week. it works if just pour money into it, just like rasing children by the government.

the 70's abolition of mental asylums by Regan. We closed the thing with no alternative and expected anything but a disaster?

Re: Once hailed for decriminalizing drugs, Portugal is now having doubts

#630

Post by defrost »

Aerroon wrote: post #611
defrost wrote: post #564

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The key complaint above as I read it is the cost of both the drug and the doctor's visit. It's entirely possible to have chaep prescription asthma medication regulated by low cost national health care subsidised doctors appointments.

My complaint is: why can't I just buy the asthma inhaler without any kind of subsidy? I know I have asthma, I know how to use an inhaler, but I'm simply not allowed to. Instead I just have to hope for the best when breathing gets difficult.

The deal in Australia (public health service) is that depending upon the level of severity of a persons asthma doctors want to physically check on patients every three to six months .. if you've been prescribed certain kinds of treatment you get months long "refill prescriptions" that ultimately have to be renewed by a doctor (although I believe that pharmacists can extend arefill prescription if you tell them why you haven't been able to drop in and see the doctor).

https://www.nationalasthma.org.au/understanding-asthma/treat...

AS I understand it you can get an inhaler most of the time w/out seeing a doctor, you can get an inhaler if you really need it, but you do need to see a doctor to keep getting an inhaler so that the progression of your symptoms can be checked.

Australia loves epidemiology and keeping tabs on treatments, progressions and outcomes.

It's very little to do with spying on individuals and very much to do with keeping tabs on broad health trends and tailoring bulk medication orders, etc.

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