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Wayland on OpenBSD

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Re: Wayland on OpenBSD

#151

Post by nine_k »

growse wrote: post #87
nine_k wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many, many people care about: - Screenshots and sharing the screen; - Global hotkeys; - Alternative / switchable / tunable keyboard layouts and input methods. Not fancy stuff, just, say, typing Latin, Cyrillic, Greek, and Japanese characters. All these things are is some sort of disarray under Wayland currently. Once they are properly implemented, I may consider switching. I want Wayland to succeed. But it's not enti…

> - Screenshots and sharing the screen; Here's a screenshot I just took on my plasma / wayland desktop. https://imgur.com/a/IBI6u3S Here's a screenshot of me sharing a window in firefox: https://imgur.com/a/LpdyqIl > Global hotkeys I use global hotkeys to switch between keyboard layouts, see the screenshot. Works fine. > Alternative / switchable / tunable keyboard layouts and input methods. Not fancy stuff, just, say…

Last time I tried to use Wayland was indeed quite some time ago. I should try again!

Re: Wayland on OpenBSD

#152

Post by nortonham »

WastingMyTime89 wrote: post #110
hist_thr wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wayland is a replacement for X11 in the same way that a tricycle is a replacement for a tractor. They have thrown everything difficult out of the spec and only implemented the most trivial functionality around a security model which you must actively break to get actual work (like screen shots) done. That Wayland is 10 years old and still barely usable should tell you how far software developers have fallen in the la…

Can someone explain to me why Linux users seem so interested about having this long heated discussion about very low level piece of the OS infrastructure they actually have no expertise about and don’t really care about in a direct way? It’s a never ending source of amusement for me. If what you do is broken, just go see your OS provider and ask them to fix it. Why do you even care about how things are working under…

>Can someone explain to me why Linux users seem so interested about having this long heated discussion about very low level piece of the OS infrastructure they actually have no expertise about and don’t really care about in a direct way?

lmao this is basically every discussion about wayland, systemd, the gpl, red hat, you name it. People feel the need to argue about things especially in the linux/foss world. reddit, hacker news, et al would have far less traffic if people didn't want to argue about display servers or init systems.

Re: Wayland on OpenBSD

#153

Post by marcthe12 »

badsectoracula wrote: post #129
bitwize wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Waypipe can run Wayland applications remotely in a more modern fashion that doesn't suck ass on all but the fastest network links. But this will be a useful stopgap for those who stubbornly cling to X11 (or are forced to, e.g. by NVIDIA hardware) as more and more useful software drops X support and goes Wayland-only.

> more and more useful software drops X support and goes Wayland-only. I can't think of any such case, any example? Besides even if X support is dropped by an application, 12to11 - or any other Wayland implementation that runs under X - will keep it working. It isn't like most programs use X directly anyway.

Well I believe there is foot. GTK devs ae planning to drop X11 support in gtk5 and they will start work on that after gnome 45 release so in a couple of years, all gnome apps

Re: Wayland on OpenBSD

#154

Post by dale_glass »

smorrebrod wrote: post #138
vetinari wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think it is because Linux users tend to be more familiar with their software than users of other OSes. But they really don't. They might have familiarized at one point of time, but that snapshot is not where the world is at now. They cannot really expect that the world around them will stop developing, so their know-how and hacks stay current. It is still this, all over again: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTdU…

> But they really don't. They might have familiarized at one point of time, but that snapshot is not where the world is at now. They cannot really expect that the world around them will stop developing, so their know-how and hacks stay current. Maybe we have different experiences. I am not working in a computer related industry so the people I know who use Linux are the only one following tech news, self hosting serv…

> Again, it may be my incomplete POV but I have never seen any Windows user look at source code to try to understand a particular function to adapt the software to their workflow. I've seen numerous Linux users do this.

It exists, but in smaller numbers than you'd hope for.

Eg, Slashdot is full of greybeards who apparently believe computing peaked in the 90s, learned next to nothing since, and as a result can't understand why systemd does what it does.

I don't mean they disagree on the technical merits, but like they're confused as to why would a Linux system needs functionality that caters to a modern desktop laptop user, and it's not enough to have what was required in a server room in the 90s.

Re: Wayland on OpenBSD

#155

Post by bandrami »

teekert wrote: post #146
bandrami wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And can't be configured. The loss of function for clickpads is particularly egregious; they're basically unusable under Wayland.

It's funny how I finally find my touchpad usable under wayland ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Notice I said clickpads. Touchpads work fine once you work around Wayland's bizarre fear of enabling tap-to-click.

Re: Wayland on OpenBSD

#156

Post by horsawlarway »

hist_thr wrote: post #4
themerone wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is about preparing for a post X11 future. As Wayland continues to mature, classic X will attract fewer developer resources. I think it will eventually start to suffer benign neglect, and stop keeping up with new hardware.

Wayland is a replacement for X11 in the same way that a tricycle is a replacement for a tractor. They have thrown everything difficult out of the spec and only implemented the most trivial functionality around a security model which you must actively break to get actual work (like screen shots) done. That Wayland is 10 years old and still barely usable should tell you how far software developers have fallen in the la…

I love this comment. Arrogance, fear, entitlement, and ignorance rolled into a giant blob, salted with a touch of insult and nostalgia.

Absolutely no content worth commenting on, but guaranteed to start a holy war type argument on a thread that should be about some guy's hobby project about a thing he likes and does in his spare time.

Truly - Well done sir. Class act.

Re: Wayland on OpenBSD

#157

Post by Monsterovich »

growse wrote: post #87
nine_k wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many, many people care about: - Screenshots and sharing the screen; - Global hotkeys; - Alternative / switchable / tunable keyboard layouts and input methods. Not fancy stuff, just, say, typing Latin, Cyrillic, Greek, and Japanese characters. All these things are is some sort of disarray under Wayland currently. Once they are properly implemented, I may consider switching. I want Wayland to succeed. But it's not enti…

> - Screenshots and sharing the screen; Here's a screenshot I just took on my plasma / wayland desktop. https://imgur.com/a/IBI6u3S Here's a screenshot of me sharing a window in firefox: https://imgur.com/a/LpdyqIl > Global hotkeys I use global hotkeys to switch between keyboard layouts, see the screenshot. Works fine. > Alternative / switchable / tunable keyboard layouts and input methods. Not fancy stuff, just, say…

> Here's a screenshot of me sharing a window in firefox:

You forgot to mention that it doesn't work without portals and Pipewire dependency, and portals have to be implemented individually for each DE.

> I use global hotkeys to switch between keyboard layouts, see the screenshot. Works fine.

Because the KDE developers went to a lot of effort to make it work. That doesn't mean it will work well in other DEs and that is Wayland's problem.

Re: Wayland on OpenBSD

#158

Post by MattPalmer1086 »

lmm wrote: post #36
SoftTalker wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your memory of config file nightmares (I had them too) is a decade old now. X11 works without config for the vast majority of users. Yes it took a while to get there, but it's been there for a good while now and not really anything for Wayland to point at as a differentiator.

> Your memory of config file nightmares (I had them too) is a decade old now. It's at least 2 decades old, if it was ever a real problem in the first place.

It was definitely a real problem. Things would work for a while and then break. Sometimes you had to choose between one thing that worked and another. I spent many unhappy hours tweaking X config.

But it was indeed around 20 years ago that it was an issue.

Re: Wayland on OpenBSD

#159

Post by badsectoracula »

marcthe12 wrote: post #153
badsectoracula wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> more and more useful software drops X support and goes Wayland-only. I can't think of any such case, any example? Besides even if X support is dropped by an application, 12to11 - or any other Wayland implementation that runs under X - will keep it working. It isn't like most programs use X directly anyway.

Well I believe there is foot. GTK devs ae planning to drop X11 support in gtk5 and they will start work on that after gnome 45 release so in a couple of years, all gnome apps

Foot was made with Wayland in mind and there are tons of alternative terminals anyway so i don't think its existence is going to inconvenience or even affect at all any Xorg users.

GTK5 might be more of an issue but so far programs barely use GTK4, let alone 5. I'm not sure GNOME applications are used much outside of GNOME. In either case i'd expect something 12to11 to work with those by then (if it doesn't already).

And TBH i'd expect there will be X compatible programs for a very long time to come.

Re: Wayland on OpenBSD

#160

Post by Monsterovich »

mort96 wrote: post #63
orbital-decay wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Wayland just existed on its own, nobody would have had a problem. The people pushing Wayland are not just its authors, but the distro devs, and the entire fuss is about Wayland being declared as the "future" by certain distro developers recently. This future has an issue - it only supports an opinionated subset of maybe 3/4 use cases of the "past". However broken the past was, replacing it with something that is s…

The problem is, X is terrible. It's janky as hell, screen tearing is everywhere unless you're running extremely particular driver + hardware + X configurations, the screen locker doesn't even engage if you have a context menu open, vital things like compositing are hacked on in janky ways. For some people, Wayland isn't there yet. For a whole lot of other people, Wayland is already better than X. Are distro developer…

> It's janky as hell, screen tearing is everywhere unless you're running extremely particular driver + hardware + X configurations

There you go again with your mythical screen tearing that I've never seen.

You should learn to enable V-Sync in your compositor or in xorg.conf (the option is called Tearfree in Mesa).

> the screen locker doesn't even engage if you have a context menu open

For some reason, it worked for me.

sleep 5 && xflock4

then I open the context menu and wait 5 seconds. After 5 seconds the screen locks successfully.

> vital things like compositing are hacked on in janky ways

Bullshit. Compositing in Xorg is done properly and it's not mandatory in cases where it's not needed. Besides, the compositor in Xorg can be changed to any other compositor regardless of the window manager (exceptions - compiz).

> For some people, Wayland isn't there yet.

Essentially all people who use their computer for more than just a Google Chrome launcher.

> Are distro developers supposed to ignore that and keep pushing X, despite it being the worse option for most of their users?

The only thing that works in all use-cases is Xorg.

> Isn't it enough to provide X as an option for people who need something Wayland doesn't do yet?

Thank you, but no.

> Plus, Wayland is getting better, X isn't.

No, it's not improving. It's adding more crutches, we haven't seen such crutches even in Xorg.

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