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California needs real math education, not gimmicks

noahpinion.blog

281–290 of 386 posts

Re: California needs real math education, not gimmicks

#281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The one solution that will work (and is vehemently resisted) is to pay teachers a base salary plus a bonus for each student that meets grade level expectations at the end of the year. You're talking as if this isn't how the system works today. Your proposal is literally how US education has worked since the 80s. The disaster you see in the public education system in the US is in part caused by merit-based systems i…

Why does teaching to a test not work? If the curriculum was standard and the test was well made it should work fine. All my college grades were 50-100% test based and it seemed to work fine. Maybe you break down the content into testable units or something instead of one big test but still what’s wrong with tests?

There are a bunch of reasons why teaching to the test doesn't work.

1. Because tests are a crappy way of assessing knowledge.

There are students who are amazing test takers, but don't really understand the material. There are students who are terrible test takers, like they have test anxiety, but have an incredible understanding of the material if you talk to them and they work through a problem in front of you.

2. Because it's a terrible teaching methodology.

No one wants to learn about something because it's on the test. That's horrible motivation. They want to learn about something because it explains something cool they could never understand, because it provides a new perspective, because they get to do an exciting thing, because it's a fun competition with others, etc.

When you have to teach to a test, people teach to a test. There's pressure from administration to do it because the merit-based pay isn't just for you personally, it's also for the school as a whole. When test scores don't go up your school gets punished too. So now you drill the specific problems on the test over and over again. Do test scores go up? Sure, by that 0.1 standard deviations we talked about. Does joy go up? Does understanding go up? No.

3. Because tests can only test so much.

Practically, only so many topics can be on the test. There are big topics that are important to know in every class. There's tension here: if you design a test that's in a sense fair for a machine, you pick a random page, a random paragraph and ask a specific question about that paragraph, well, ok, you have a test that tests everything. Sort of, at least at the level of memorization. But, immediately people would say this is a terrible test for a human: why does it matter that my child remember the minutia in page 32, paragraph 3, when there are 7 big topics in this course, the topics that are important to build on for next year, and my child mastered them all? And that's fair criticism.

So now, tests become about the big things. Which makes sense, that's what you need for the future. But that interacts with 1 and 2. So now you drill the big topics over and over again. It becomes a game about memorizations.

4. Because we start teaching test taking skills instead of material

Many people are not good test takers. And that's fine! The goal of tests is not to test if you're a good test taker. It's to test if you know the material. We specifically design tests to avoid testing how good you are at taking tests.

Well, when the stakes are so high at Mr/Ms's Smith's retirement fund is on the line, and St. Margaret's operating funds for next year are on the line, people teach test taking. This is miserable for students. You basically teach it by taking a lot of tests over and over. And then of course teaching test taking strategies.

5. Because it makes losers and winners.

If a teacher and school knows that Jimmy isn't going to make it to grade level, will they work with Jimmy so he can do his best. Maybe catch up a little this year? Maybe find an alternative teaching style. Maybe there's a 10% chance that it will work out for Jimmy and he'll go on to university and do amazing things. No. Teaching to the test and merit based pay means that teachers will dump Jimmy. Even if they don't want to do that, the administration makes them. Jimmy is a liability, sure, but it's worse. All the time spent on Jimmy becomes a liability too. Better to just discard him to the scrap heap, he's unlikely to pass the test anyway. We'll double down on our efforts to help Bob instead. He's middling, he has a 70% chance to pass the test. If we double down maybe we increase that to 90%. That's much better for us. This is terrible for students and it feels really bad as a teacher too.

There's much more that is wrong, this is just a short summary.

It doesn't teach people to become educated, curious, smart, interesting, kind, well-rounded. To ask interesting questions. To want to learn. It forces teachers to turn people into widgets and to discard them like widgets.

Re: California needs real math education, not gimmicks

#282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's also an increased distance between those doing the actual work and those making decisions about how it should be done. Bureaucratic depth keeps any real change from taking place, instead leaving those on the ground level to try and work within a set growing rules. Any attempt to affect change has to be filtered through so many levels and takes so long. As a longtime teacher, I don't think there are any soluti…

My solution to the education attitude issue in the us, which is very real: pay the families that perform best in school districts. Take the top grades on each years final tests and give the family money. The entire society will change overnight, as people will suddenly be asking kids why they aren’t studying.

This Ted talk (includes a lot of data) shows that motivation via money hurts creative problem solving.

https://youtu.be/rrkrvAUbU9Y

Re: California needs real math education, not gimmicks

#283
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Soviets had a good public education system. No economic miracle. Japan's and Korea's economic miracles came from embracing free markets. The same thing happened in Vietnam and China. Free markets => prosperity, every time.

But to have a functioning free market, you need a basic functioning legal system, so people exchanging goods and services don't get robbed.

For the market to be free the legal system has to exert a lot of pressure. The natural state of markets is not free.

Re: California needs real math education, not gimmicks

#284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think one big problem is that low test scores are highly correlated to poverty.I think one big problem is that low test scores are highly correlated to poverty. True, but the arrow of causality is not from "poverty" to "low test scores". Children of poor (and sometimes illiterate) Chinese immigrants did and do quite well!

Careful, you’re not allowed to utter the “C” word here in relation to educational outcomes. (The word is “Culture”)

Your phrasing is crude but there is truth in it. In theory, African-American communities could be much better off with some drastic changes in culture, and it would be far more feasible for the government to pick up the slack and level the playing field (affordable quality education, abolish legacy admissions, etc.). Any amount of public school infrastructure and funding doesn't inherently get people to learn; students play a part in their own success. Of course, changing culture is much easier said than done.

Re: California needs real math education, not gimmicks

#285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The one solution that will work (and is vehemently resisted) is to pay teachers a base salary plus a bonus for each student that meets grade level expectations at the end of the year.

Can you offer any evidence or reasoning as to why I should believe this? It would seem to assert that somehow student success/failure currently sits entirely in the hands of teachers: they know what is needed and could do it if only they were marginally more motivated. I'm not a teacher myself but have been involved in the system my entire life and this doesn't ring true at all. Even if it were possible it would almo…

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Re: California needs real math education, not gimmicks

#286
post #51

In my younger years, particularly during my schooling, I held a deep resentment towards the educational system. It felt overtly clear to me, as a student, that schools failed to effectively foster learning and growth. However, my perspective has evolved over time. I've come to understand that the issues I observed are not unique to the school system but rather characteristic of large institutions as a whole. The perv…

I think the core issue is that we expect institutions like schools to do multiple, often conflicting tasks. In the US, schools are expected to: * Provide instruction to the median student. * Provide support services to those with learning or other disabilities. * Empower gifted students to learn to their potential. * Serve as an amateur sports league. * Distribute food to the hungry via the school lunch program * Ser…

I tend to agree and I think public schools, at least in the US, have the same basic challenge as most government services. The consumer/parent/voter has direct control over the inputs to the system (funding, policy, etc) as well as expectations on the output (the goals you mentioned), but doesn't actually behave as if they're at least partially responsible for those outputs. I actually think taxpayers are generally supportive of education as a goal, but they think that's achieved by shouting at the school district instead of voting as if education was their priority.

Government bureaucracy absolutely produces less than optimal incentives and priorities, but the responsibility voters have in creating those incentives seems underappreciated, especially when it comes to public schools.

Re: California needs real math education, not gimmicks

#287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funding is not the problem, at least not everywhere. My local school district (San Francisco) has: - an annual operating budget of $1.2bn/year. - ~50k K-12 students. That's $24k per student per year. Let's assume a teacher costs $150k/year and you want a low student:teacher ratio of 20:1. Of the $24k, $7.5k is needed to pay 1/20th of the cost of the teacher. You still have two thirds of the money left. Is that not en…

The median salary for a teacher in SF seems to be ~$70k +/- $9k [0], so about half you guess. Which, I mean, how the heck are they living anywhere near SF on that salary? Jeeze Louise... A better breakdown of the '21-'22 budget for SFUSD seems to be here: [1]. Numbers in () are a per student number Federal Revenue: $48,915,000 ($926) Local Revenue: $667,062,000 ($12,631) State Revenue: $455,213,000 ($8,620) Instructi…

Some quick thoughts:

1. You can find the latest operating budget (for 2023-2024) here[0]. It's $1.28bn.

2. The student ratio and cost per teacher assumptions I have were meant to be generous, to illustrate how, even with generous assumptions, it's hard to explain why $24k/student isn't enough.

3. If you do want to look at actual teacher costs for SFUSD, don't forget to sum salaries, benefits and pensions. If you want to look at total compensation for a specific teacher, Google 'transparent california', which has a searchable database for past years.

4. Cost of living changes don't affect everyone equally. Due to rent control, people who signed a rental contract 10-15 years ago (like many SFUSD teachers) aren't paying the same as folks who moved more recently.

[0] https://www.sfusd.edu/about-sfusd/sfusd-news/press-releases/...

Re: California needs real math education, not gimmicks

#288

I am just confronting this now. My daughter is 6, and I'm trying to teach her math and reading. She's excelling at reading. The thing about math is, I have to teach her math the way the standards specify. The problem is… The common core math is just strange. I find it confusing, and I did a full tour at an engineering college. Math is a “procedure”. That's why programs like MatLab/MathCad can solve equations-- they j…

Please look into Beast Academy (online without books) and work through it with your daughter. Read the comics to her and go through the exercises together as needed.

I'll second this.

Beast is the only thing I've come across that feels to me like it's actually teaching math.

Re: California needs real math education, not gimmicks

#289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sadly, the link you provided shows how much nonsense there is in this space. They provide two sources of "evidence". Both of them are total junk. For example, they say: As educators, we have heard a lot about the downside of extrinsic motivation. Studies have shown that extrinsic motivation produces only short-term effects, at best. One study out of Princeton University goes so far as to say, “External incentives are…

That was just a Google result that I scanned and found reasonable, so I have no great desire to defend it strongly, but: The economics paper is trying to reconcile the economics orthodoxy of "incentives matter" with the experimental evidence (that it references from across decades) that incentives can in some cases hurt. It's intro is a decent survey of the issue, and has the meta benefit that economists if they coul…

> that it references from across decades) that incentives can in some cases hurt.

To be clear, originally you said "extrinsic motivation can negatively impact intrinsic motivation". "Incentives can hurt" is a totally different statement; but I assume you still mean the original.

A short digression. As a scientist I think we should teach critical reading skills when it comes to science. This study has a bunch of things going against it:

1. It is published in an economics venue. This means the reviewers were economists, not psychologists. They had no clue about rewards, children, etc. They are experts in evaluating the model, not in what you want to know about, which is the part about humans.

2. You are relying on something in the paper that isn't the key contribution. You're relying on a short survey in the intro. No reviewer carefully read this and proposed updates. And even if they did, they were not the deciding factor in acceptance. Even if the intro was one-sided and mostly junk, if the model was amazing, the paper would be published. Papers are not evaluated based on their intros.

3. The paper is almost 25 years old, surveying material that is more than 25 years old. Science changes. A lot. The conclusions here could be totally different from the conclusions in a paper today because we have so much more evidence, higher quality studies, and better conceptual frameworks.

4. The authors have a particular goal: they want to show that there's a conflict between internal and external goals. This taints everything. They don't want to present an even-handed review, they literally want to make their case to a reader. I'm not saying this in some "conspiracy" sense. When I write a paper I want to argue my view, and put my view's worldview at the center, because I want to win people over.

All of this means that you should not be reading this paper in this way. It's the wrong paper, from the wrong time, with the wrong thesis, and you're looking in the wrong section.

We can do better!

Here is a review from 2020. https://msofc.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/2020-Intrinsic-...

Let's compare with the points above.

1. It is published in Contemporary Educational Psychology. You can bet the reviewers here know the material, know the latest studies on child learning, etc.

2. The key contribution of the paper is a survey. This is what they are being evaluated for. You missed a paper? Nope, your survey is bad we don't accept you. You didn't fairly represent what that paper said, we don't accept you. etc. The paper is being evaluated by what you are looking for.

3. The survey is fairly current, 4-5 years is ok. You would expect a survey every that many years, or at least once per decade or so.

4. The authors might have biases, but not in this paper. This paper's goal is to present the state of the art. And reviewers aren't looking at the paper based on how well did their argue their point, they're looking at it based on how well they represented the state of the art.

All of this means that this paper should be read to find what you want to know. It's the right kind of paper, from the right time, with the idea of looking at the field and answering these kinds of questions, and we're looking in the main body of the paper.

Now, let's turn to the paper itself.

What it says is that extrinsic motivation is no longer seen as so alien from intrinsic motivation. That in the past 20 years there's a new framework that talks about internalizing extrinsic motivation.

https://al-kindipublisher.com/index.php/jeltal/article/downl...

The story is the same if you look at the paper above on language learning. The two types of motivation are not seen as opposites anymore.

You can keep reading by looking for "survey intrinsic extrinsic motivation teaching" and you'll find many more post 2020 papers. They all say the same thing. The field has changed. The two aren't opposites. Both are useful.

Re: California needs real math education, not gimmicks

#290
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cash incentives aren't going to make a difference. The only thing that works is school choice. If parents can choose the schools, the schools have to deliver results.

School choice only works because you can choose to not be in a school with high need kids. The public schools can’t choose their student so it’s a huge disadvantage

That's a feature not a bug and public school districts should do the same.

Because districts are required to provide education to all students, they should establish special schools that are essentially prisons for children with behavioral issues or daycares for the mentally handicapped to segment the student population when necessary.

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