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Moving the Evernote center of operations to Europe

evernote.com

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Re: Moving the Evernote center of operations to Europe

#91

Post by dasil003 »

ghaff wrote: post #68
dasil003 wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dislike the word “passionate” in this context too. You don’t have to be in love with programming, but there definitely are qualities of curiosity, tenacity and pride of workmanship that are very important to high performing software teams.

To some degree that’s probably true of most jobs though. There are some people that paint software as something unique where it isn’t some all consuming nights and weekends interest you’re not a “real” programmer.

Let me separate your two sentences, because the latter is an immature viewpoint that I wholeheartedly disagree with.

WRT what makes software unique is that it’s a rare combination of opaque, hard to evaluate, long-lived, mechanically unforgiving and path-dependent. In other words, incompetent developers can make a huge mess of things that future developers can find it impossible to dig out from. Other jobs have some of these aspects, but I can’t think of any that share all of them.

Re: Moving the Evernote center of operations to Europe

#93

Post by pythux »

oneTbrain23 wrote: post #79
iampims wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You possibly meant 35 days per year.

French side do weeks not days like Americans. That is why French can't compete with the rest of EU. If you think Americam boomers bad, ENTIRE France is a glorified boomers on steroid. To be fair their income tax rate is 70%. So work hard? Reagan once forgo the other half of the year of work once he max his marginal tax rate.

Income tax rate is far from 70% (not sure if this was second degree or not).

Up to €10,777 = 0% From €10,778 to €27,478 = 11% From €27,479 to €78,570 = 30% From €78,571 to €168,994 = 41% More than €168,994 = 45%

https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F1419?l...

Re: Moving the Evernote center of operations to Europe

#94

Post by jitl »

ahmedfromtunis wrote: post #76

I think for note taking apps there are only two ways to survive: enrich the offering and grow accordingly (e.g. Notion) or feature-freeze the app and stay small (e.g. Remember the milk). What brought Evernote down is it being stuck between the two worlds: it grew its corporate footprint without growing its offering.

Notion makes money on team use & collaboration. I think notes apps that are laser focused on individual use are much harder to justify and pretty much have to stay small/lean/indie and they’re selling essentially a luxury product to a small user base.

Re: Moving the Evernote center of operations to Europe

#97

Post by lamontcg »

throw-way-124 wrote: post #25

I'm afraid that this is a trend that is only going to accelerate in the new remote-first world that is now the reality for software engineering. Sure, some companies mint money and will always pay a premium for top talent. But for a mature product not bringing in huge amounts of revenue, why pay someone to work remotely in the US (especially in the bay area) versus paying someone a third of that salary in Europe?

Because you fire everyone who knows how the systems work. And while Evernote sounds like a weekend project to everyone on HN, I'm certain that over the decade-plus of its existence that it has accreted a lot of technical debt and 'FIXME: we should rewrite this spaghetti' all over the codebase. You've now replaced anyone who knows how the product actually works with people who don't understand the product and aren't going to be incentivized to /care/ about the product at all. The codebase probably needs a rewrite, but the people who understood all the issues of the codebase are gone, so any future rewrite is just about guaranteed to fail.

So what you're left with is a skeleton staff who just keeps it running, it won't grow it won't get new features, it'll stagnate and the profits will come from cutting staff even more aggressively. It is definitely a zombie product now.

And any remaining users should already have jumped ship. The staff remaining won't know how it all works, they'll have cut staff down to the bone, and there's a high likelihood of everything getting hacked or just constant service interruptions.

Re: Moving the Evernote center of operations to Europe

#98

Post by macintux »

throw-way-124 wrote: post #27
emptysongglass wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment implies European tech workers are somehow less passionate or that passionate tech workers can't be found here. This is a harmful myth that perpetuates our depressed wages. We're not America's backwater for tech sourcing. We're just as capable and passionate.

> Your comment implies European tech workers are somehow less passionate or that passionate tech workers can't be found here. No, it implies that there are Americans who don't care about their work and there are Europeans who don't care about their work. But the former are far more pricey.

The original comment was easy to misinterpret; I had the same thought until I reached the last few words.

Re: Moving the Evernote center of operations to Europe

#99

Post by macintux »

29athrowaway wrote: post #74
emptysongglass wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment implies European tech workers are somehow less passionate or that passionate tech workers can't be found here. This is a harmful myth that perpetuates our depressed wages. We're not America's backwater for tech sourcing. We're just as capable and passionate.

The protestant work ethic is becoming a thing of the past. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_work_ethic The replacement now is the "hustler's work ethic", which takes away the virtues from the traditional work ethic.

Loyalty and hard work are a two-way street. Companies generally haven’t demonstrated loyalty; employees are forced to reciprocate lest they find themselves unemployed and unemployable.

Re: Moving the Evernote center of operations to Europe

#100

Post by martin8412 »

renlo wrote: post #37
beardedscotsman wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t understand your critique. Are you saying that European software developers don’t have a passion for shipping products?

I took it to mean: it's better to pay an EU salary than a Bay Area salary if the SWE is unenthusiastic / an average performer. i.e. "Both EU and Bay Area have SWE who will ship code. Only pay Bay Area salaries for those who go above and beyond shipping code"

I use plenty of paid software developed in the Bay Area that I wouldn't even use for free if I had a choice in the matter. The reason for a lot of successful software companies in the Bay Area has nothing to do with the people. It's disposable cash willing to throw money at an idea with a 1/500 chance of working out. As already seen, cash is running out for a lot of startups and they won't be getting another round of funding. That will lead to wages significantly dropping. We don't see the same in Europe where the wages were never hyperinflated. Wages continue to increase albeit at a slow pace.
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