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Meta releases Intermediate Graphics Library

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Re: Meta releases Intermediate Graphics Library

#211
post #201
post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Rendering requires a number of “artistic” choices so I doubt that precedent would apply here. I wouldn’t speculate on what might fly in court, but while some rendering can require artistic choices, it’s certainly not a requirement for all renderings, and more importantly, the specific renderings in question here are very low on the artistic choices scale; they’re generic screen-captures meant to demonstrate the lib…

What I meant by rendering is not scene staging: lights, camera position, etc. what I meant was that when you implement a rendering engine, you need to make artistic choices. Like when you implement a lightening system, there are a number of decisions you need to make about how it works. Each decision changes how the final lighting looks. That’s why you can pretty much tell when a video game was implemented using UE3:…

This isn’t a rendering engine, it’s a library layer that just provides an interface to OpenGL, Vulkan, Metal, etc. The pics in the article look like OpenGL renders, and this library is not really making its own “artistic choices”.

Even if it was a rendering engine, having worked on rendering engines for both games and film, I’m unconvinced by your argument. In fact, the goal is typically to avoid baking artistic choices into the engine. The goal is usually to represent the choices made in the scene and the staging by the actual artists faithfully without bias. Sometimes there are some identifiable styles that emerge out of the technical limitations of an engine, or occasionally from unique technical features. It’d be a stretch to call those artistic choices. There can also be uniquely stylized engines that make unique artistic choices, and they’re pretty niche so I can’t even name one off the top of my head, but this library by Meta definitely isn’t one of those.

And again, if you look at the two specific images in question in the article, there really aren’t any particularly unique artistic choices there, neither in the rendering engine nor in the staging. They look like screenshots of an OpenGL render of the CC licensed Bistro, using a camera view and lighting that is similar to thousands of other shots of this scene.

Re: Meta releases Intermediate Graphics Library

#212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Angle is ultimately a OpenGL|ES implementation on top of other APIs since webgl is pretty close to GLES, but desktops don't typically implement GLES. This (IGL) is more a layer sitting on top between your app and the system provides API since pretty much every system has a different blessed API these days: Browser:WebGL/WebGPU, Windows:DirectX/Vulkan, Mac:Metal, Linux/Android:Vulkan, Consoles: Proprietary APIs like N…

So then the full stack for using IGL in browser (on Windows at least) would be App Code -> IGL -> WebGL -> ANGLE -> DirectX -> Hardware device? Owie

Technically there's also a driver layer sitting between the DirectX 'client-side' API and the hardware, so it's even worse ;)

(the whole point of more modern 3D APIs, which move most of the expensive "abstraction-layer translation work" into the initialization phase is to "cut through" all those layers in the frame loop though)

Re: Meta releases Intermediate Graphics Library

#213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Not if we have anything to say about that!" ~ Disney Lawyers and Lobbyists anxious to extend copywriter protections again

The general consensus is that the current Congress is much less amenable to that lobbying than Congress was back in 1998, the last time US copyright terms were extended – and that Disney realises that, so they aren't seriously pursuing it this time around. One reason is that supporters of the public domain are much better organised than in the 1990s, and their cause has become a lot more popular and mainstream. For e…

I hope that you're right. Even the current copyright duration is absolutely insane, and the world is losing trillions USD in progress/knowledge/opportunity just so Disney can sell Mickey f@¢#ing Mouse! Enough already!

I'm willing to give the 1998 legislators the benefit of doubt -- they were probably clueless when it comes to internet and technology. But extending copyright further now should be seen as a crime against humanity.

Re: Meta releases Intermediate Graphics Library

#214
post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

WebGPU will take ages and ages to be fully usable across all platforms (eg old androids)

Who cares about old Androids? Facebook su-, sorry, Meta sure doesn't.

There’s no clear date when even iOS will get it. It took years and years to get wasm simd on mobile safari

Re: Meta releases Intermediate Graphics Library

#215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But I can still add a "(c) My Name" on the image, which is the question at hand

Having copyright does not serve as an exemption for the limitations of trademark/trade dress.

Yes, but that's an orthogonal argument to what this whole thread was about. Whether Meta has copyright on a render of a scene created by a different company.

Re: Meta releases Intermediate Graphics Library

#216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I was under an impression Vulkan runs on everything. Sadly, that's not the case. For game consoles, neither Xbox nor PlayStation support Vulkan. iOS and macOS have their own Metal API (because of course they got to have their own thing). So, with just a Vulkan backend, you can only target Windows, Linux, Android, and Nintendo Switch natively. Translation layers like MoltenVK may help though. It's still unclear whet…

Switch currently supports Vulkan but could drop it?

The Switch supports Vulkan, but it's also quite old at this point. Nintendo will probably release a new console in the near future and we simply don't know whether that one will support Vulkan or not.

Re: Meta releases Intermediate Graphics Library

#217
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are too kind. Mid to late 90s game. What is up with those shadows. I have written a 3D-engine with better image quality than this like 20 years ago. At least it is not a teapot.

> I have written a 3D-engine with better image quality than this like 20 years ago. Well good news, it's not a 3d engine at all! It's a nice common API to cover all the existing graphics APIs.

A large part of creating a 3D-engine is to try figuring out what capabilities can be used with what performance across different hardware. If this is only an abstraction it won't solve anything.

Re: Meta releases Intermediate Graphics Library

#218
post #60
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Just based on the screenshot, I am not sure that I would even bother to dig too deeply into the library." Adding any PBR materials as samples would have been the wrong choice, since those are not hardware or graphics api dependent, and are always for the implementor to implment by themselves. You don't want a graphics api to look nice at this abstraction level. You get access to device resources, shader API etc. Onc…

> Adding any PBR materials as samples would have been the wrong choice, since those are not hardware or graphics api dependent, and are always for the implementor to implment by themselves. That "bistro" image is all PBR materials, represented in glTF. It's supposed to look the same for all standards-compliant glTF renderers, and it pretty much does. I posted the same scene in another renderer above. It's a brightly…

I don’t see the API claiming to be a standards compliant GLTF renderer, and I would be very confused if it did claim something like that as it’s feature. That said a ’render GLTF PBR’ sample would not be a bad thing to show the authors intent how to organize things etc.

Re: Meta releases Intermediate Graphics Library

#219
post #36

For an intermediate library, it doesn't actually seem to be very much backend-independent. At least the desktop sample [1] has a disappointing amount of code paths with parallel implementations for OpenGL and Vulkan, switched at compile time using "#if USE_OPENGL_BACKEND". I guess this means that this sample will use OpenGL rather than Metal on macOS? They claim there's a Metal backend, but how would one enable that…

This looks like what happens when the "All abstractions are leaky" crowd go too far. It's an absence of abstraction to the point that the intermediary layer is not helpful enough, and will simply end up hidden behind another layer of obfuscatory gunk. Graphics people need to face the fact that writing optimised cross platform renderers is not something that can be solved by divide/conquer into layers in this bottom u…

Don’t you think this is already happening for most AAA production tech? Most high performance real-time stuff does go top-down. Mid-core stuff or art tooling might be fine with bgfx (or this I guess).
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