When an app asks for permissions, it should have a “feed fake data” option • Hacker News Board

Re: When an app asks for permissions, it should have a “feed fake data” option

#161

Post by lldb » Sat, Jul 08, 2023, 5:23 PM UTC

ryandrake wrote: post #27

I’m all for the “fake data” idea, but also: Apps should be required to gracefully handle the cases where users deny permission to access real data. I know last time I developed for iOS, it was Apple’s policy that apps cannot punish users or exit() the app in retaliation for them denying a permission. Apps must gracefully handle it and continue running. Also, and this was even longer ago, apps could not require users…

Worst offender is google photos on iOS - you can’t even open the app without giving it all photos access. Selected photos doesn’t count. Even just to view photos already saved in the cloud.

Re: When an app asks for permissions, it should have a “feed fake data” option

#162

Post by ianburrell » Sat, Jul 08, 2023, 5:24 PM UTC

chongli wrote: post #63

jsnell wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Apple Maps wouldn’t have this issue. It’s capable of running offline (without a data connection) because it can download maps to the device. Why would that matter? Even if the map data is cached locally, a navigation app obviously needs a GPS location from the phone, which requires it to be granted permissions. And the fake data would be equally disastrous to any navigation app. Or are you suggesting that if Apple…

If you don't have a data connection then it's fine to give location data to an application because there's nowhere it can send it. With properly designed APIs, the app shouldn't be able to store the location data either, only display it to the user by calling the map API.

Location can, and is, stored in the local device and uploaded when connected. Location data is tiny compared to something like video.

All apps can store data because most need to store data if just for settings and cached. Especially any offline navigation app. There is a difference between app storage and general storage.

Re: When an app asks for permissions, it should have a “feed fake data” option

#163

Post by immibis » Sat, Jul 08, 2023, 5:25 PM UTC

jeroenhd wrote: post #97

oliverulerich wrote: post #85

Android introduced the approximate location option (I believe it was in version 11) as a per-app toggle in the permission settings. https://support.google.com/accounts/answer/6179507?hl=en#:~:... .

That only disables the permission or increases the uncertainty, it doesn't really feed fake data. If apps refuse to work unless you provide detailed location info or other permissions, there's no "provide fake data" option like the post suggests.

Apps can use GeoIP to get an approximate location most of the time, and there's nothing Google can do to prevent it.

Re: When an app asks for permissions, it should have a “feed fake data” option

#164

Post by phreack » Sat, Jul 08, 2023, 5:25 PM UTC

immibis wrote: post #156

ryandrake wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good question! We actually asked Apple exactly this when appealing the AppStore de-listing. How come others can require an account and we can't? What was it about our app that made us have to spend the engineering effort to add a guest login (this was a disingenuous argument that I advised against, since we deliberately spent engineering effort to require the login)? Their response, not the exact wording since it was…

Apple used COMMON SENSE? That's incredible. Google would never do that

Keep in mind GP mentioned this was over a decade ago. Common sense is way less likely to exist at scale.

Re: When an app asks for permissions, it should have a “feed fake data” option

#165

Post by davidjfelix » Sat, Jul 08, 2023, 5:25 PM UTC

evandale wrote: post #113

rhn_mk1 wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not natural selection if you help it.

>This seems like a learning opportunity. Or a Darwinian opportunity. Either way, self-solving. I took either as meaning a learning opportunity for one or all of the 1) GPS app makers, 2) the person who blindly followed the directions of a robot, or 3) the rest of us who learn about the event. What interpretation did you have that suggests they were referring to eugenics?

I think you're selectively ignoring parts of the comment. "Darwinian opportunity ... [which is] self-solving" is clearly referring to the death of a person who blindly followed GPS directions for a mis-configured app. GP was saying that anyone who dies because an app told them wrong information was not "fit" (darwinian fitness) for survival. Expressing no remorse or desire to prevent preventable death with the justification that it's allowing the species to become more fit is eugenics.

Re: When an app asks for permissions, it should have a “feed fake data” option

#166

Post by immibis » Sat, Jul 08, 2023, 5:26 PM UTC

Havoc wrote: post #17

Unfortunately this approach makes you quite unique for fingerprinting

That might be fine. He's the guy who says he's on Mount Kilimanjaro. Where is he actually? Don't know. IP address looks like France.

Re: When an app asks for permissions, it should have a “feed fake data” option

#167

Post by immibis » Sat, Jul 08, 2023, 5:27 PM UTC

charcircuit wrote: post #19

This will just make app developers angry at your platform. If this is just some hack users are doing apps will increasingly use attestation to make sure you are not feeding them fake data. Apps want to be able to give users a good user experience and if they are given fake data users will get angry that the developer's app is broken and leave 1 star reviews. Denying permissions and letting apps know something is deni…

Fine, then don't make an app. Your loss, not mine.

Re: When an app asks for permissions, it should have a “feed fake data” option

#168

Post by Misdicorl » Sat, Jul 08, 2023, 5:28 PM UTC

immibis wrote: post #160

Misdicorl wrote: post #155

Similarly, I'd like all the scam emails to be auto responded to with fake data rather than black holed

Sometimes I do this with emails in my spam folder, but nothing interesting ever happens

Point is to make the signal to noise on response too low for the scammers to deal with. Today, they can feasibly have a person look at every response and choose the most promising targets.

If auto respond to even 0.01% of scam email, they suddenly need to have tools to weave through ridiculous amounts of data. Expensive. Scam becomes negative ROI

Re: When an app asks for permissions, it should have a “feed fake data” option

#169

Post by paradite » Sat, Jul 08, 2023, 5:28 PM UTC

WeChat has this feature.

When you authorize a third party mini program in WeChat to access your personal information, you can choose to generate a fake profile for the mini program instead of supplying your real information.

Here's an article in Chinese describing the feature:

https://www.woshipm.com/pd/2612572.html

Another article with slightly worth page experience:

https://jingyan.baidu.com/article/c275f6ba22f54ca23d7567c6.h...

Re: When an app asks for permissions, it should have a “feed fake data” option

#170

Post by pydry » Sat, Jul 08, 2023, 5:29 PM UTC

eganist wrote: post #86

rollcat wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it was Apple’s policy that apps cannot punish users or exit() the app in retaliation for them denying a permission. Meanwhile, WhatsApp still "punishes" users for denying contacts access by hiding everyone's names (only the phone numbers are shown), including for contacts that have their own names set in their own profiles. Facebook^W Meta is scum.

Worse, you can't even initiate conversations; if you've denied contacts access, the other user has to message you first. At least for me on Android, which is wild.

https://wa.me/+theirnumber