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Once hailed for decriminalizing drugs, Portugal is now having doubts

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Re: Once hailed for decriminalizing drugs, Portugal is now having doubts

#121

Post by wesselbindt »

boringuser2 wrote: post #118
wesselbindt wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>and are often recreational drug users themselves (i.e. too close to the issue) I think this is an interesting thought. As a recreational drug user myself (I drink alcohol sometimes), I do indeed feel like drugs should be legalized, so as to enable regulation. But I don't feel like me dealing with the subject in my day to day life should have a bearing on whether I'm able to have an informed opinion on the matter. It…

Literally everyone opposes rape.

Yep, me too. However legislation on x (be it rape, recreational drugs, whatever), still requires discussion, and there's always ifs and buts, and the idea that someone involved in x is somehow not someone to be taken seriously on the matter strikes me as wrong.

Re: Once hailed for decriminalizing drugs, Portugal is now having doubts

#122

Post by boringuser2 »

standardUser wrote: post #81
boringuser2 wrote: post #43

People who think drugs should be descriminalized often have no experience with actual criminal justice, and are often recreational drug users themselves (i.e. too close to the issue). It is a conspiracy theory to believe that drug criminalization has a strictly for-profit motive despite near universal adoption as a policy. That is to say, you believe a conspiracy theory casually.

Decriminalization is a cowardly half-solution that only creates more problems, leaves violent gangs in charge and does nothing to improve the purity of drugs. A measured and thoughtful legalization program for the most popular drugs is the only solution if we want to curtail black market dominance and save human lives.

You can't save every human life.

Re: Once hailed for decriminalizing drugs, Portugal is now having doubts

#124

Post by boringuser2 »

wesselbindt wrote: post #121
boringuser2 wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Literally everyone opposes rape.

Yep, me too. However legislation on x (be it rape, recreational drugs, whatever), still requires discussion, and there's always ifs and buts, and the idea that someone involved in x is somehow not someone to be taken seriously on the matter strikes me as wrong.

Its fallacious only if I reject an argument you propose with that logic.

Obviously, in the application of a logical argument, you need to respond to logic with logic.

That being said, it's also obvious that a criminal isn't really a good authority on the justness of the crime they commit -- we implicitly understand that this is part of the rationalization process for antisocial behaviors.

Also, yeah, the rape "analogy" was both socially awkward and horrible, a double whammy. Generally, rape isn't a great topic for conversation.

Re: Once hailed for decriminalizing drugs, Portugal is now having doubts

#125

Post by cwkoss »

boringuser2 wrote: post #120
cwkoss wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Strictly" seems to be constructing a strawman - I would guess almost everyone who believes in decriminalization acknowledges other motives like puritanicalism, racism, classism, labor productivity, adherence to the societal norms, etc.

Racism? Really? So, execution for drug use in Malaysia has a root cause of racism. This just goes to show you that these people have absolutely no intellectual rigor applied to any of their ideas. Their fake ideology is built strictly on a convoluted set of shibboleths that apply only loosely as semi-believable just so stories in a Western (specifically American) context.

The beginning of drug criminalization in America was directly and overly rooted in racism.

This article is a good introduction to the history of US drug enforcement: https://timeline.com/harry-anslinger-racist-war-on-drugs-pri...

Re: Once hailed for decriminalizing drugs, Portugal is now having doubts

#126

Post by sacnoradhq »

alistairSH wrote: post #54
givemeethekeys wrote: post #38

Are there countries that have successfully reduced drug use among their population without implementing strong penalties for possession?

Yes. Portugal. When they fully funded their rehab and social service program, the system worked. Then they reduced funding and seem surprised the programs don’t work any more.

Oregon is also trying it.

Re: Once hailed for decriminalizing drugs, Portugal is now having doubts

#127

Post by sacnoradhq »

standardUser wrote: post #81
boringuser2 wrote: post #43

People who think drugs should be descriminalized often have no experience with actual criminal justice, and are often recreational drug users themselves (i.e. too close to the issue). It is a conspiracy theory to believe that drug criminalization has a strictly for-profit motive despite near universal adoption as a policy. That is to say, you believe a conspiracy theory casually.

Decriminalization is a cowardly half-solution that only creates more problems, leaves violent gangs in charge and does nothing to improve the purity of drugs. A measured and thoughtful legalization program for the most popular drugs is the only solution if we want to curtail black market dominance and save human lives.

You're incredibly misinformed on this issue. The prohibition War on Drugs is what keeps drug prices up, organized criminality and violence, and the over-incarceration of mostly poor people. Take away the difficulty of access and the ridiculous criminal penalties for nonviolent infractions, and street prices drop.

Re: Once hailed for decriminalizing drugs, Portugal is now having doubts

#128

Post by sacnoradhq »

dist-epoch wrote: post #11

Drugs should be sold at the grocery store, no question asked. They should be cheap too. That would solve the drug problem.

Regulation and treatment. If adults can buy cigarettes and alcohol, might as well regulate weed and slightly harder stuff in limited/maintenance amounts. Certainly people can huff glue and make other poor choices, but the elimination of street-sold drugs should be a goal because they are unregulated, untested, and often contain toxic cutting adulterants.

Re: Once hailed for decriminalizing drugs, Portugal is now having doubts

#129

Post by ROTMetro »

cudgy wrote: post #114
themitigating wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

You forgot: Large company complains that costs are rising for the services they are providing. “We need to give more money to large company because they cannot make a reasonable profit and the company is funding my reelection campaign.” Large company sells personal data gathered from citizens to other private companies, homeland security, and whoever else wants to pay the toll. “What a sweet deal! The citizens are pa…

I'm hoping this new court ruling that the Government can't go directly to companies and must go through the process if it involves civil rights (in the current case the Biden admin talking to social media sites about removing content is a violation of the first amendment) gos through and some lawyer get's it applied to all rights (in the case of your example to government going to companies to get around people's right to privacy).

Re: Once hailed for decriminalizing drugs, Portugal is now having doubts

#130

Post by boringuser2 »

cwkoss wrote: post #125
boringuser2 wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Racism? Really? So, execution for drug use in Malaysia has a root cause of racism. This just goes to show you that these people have absolutely no intellectual rigor applied to any of their ideas. Their fake ideology is built strictly on a convoluted set of shibboleths that apply only loosely as semi-believable just so stories in a Western (specifically American) context.

The beginning of drug criminalization in America was directly and overly rooted in racism. This article is a good introduction to the history of US drug enforcement: https://timeline.com/harry-anslinger-racist-war-on-drugs-pri...

QED, your post, etc.

Racism theory is a Rorschach test.

Suffice it to say, it's really tough to interrogate reality when you have nothing but contrapositive indications and your response is "yes, this only applies to this one instance though".

This is why studying things systemically rather than through a collection of historical anecdotes you've picked up is a vastly superior system for modelling reality. This argumentum ad collection of ad hoc historical anecdotes that reify my pseudoscientific ideas is less interesting intellectually than Horoscopes.

We don't need to discuss this further as it is highly incendiary and you're not allowed to have arguments about topics that make people upset, so any polemicist is basically unchecked.

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