Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

DMT, Derealization, and Depersonalization

ecstaticintegration.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

41–50 of 74 posts

Re: DMT, Derealization, and Depersonalization

#41

Post by throwanem »

kibwen wrote: post #28
throwanem wrote: post #10

Nobody wants to discuss potential harms in a grassroots advocacy movement for legalization or normalization - we saw the same thing in decades past with cannabis. The reasons are understandable, but the results aren't great. I would rather see more openness up front even at the cost of complicating the message, than see folks end up with this kind of trouble because advocates chose not to be as honest about the risks…

> even at the cost of complicating the message The problem is that complicated messages don't scale. If your cause can't be reduced to a buzzphrase, you cannot achieve wide-spread change. I'm not trying to be deliberately edgy or cynical, it just seems like a fatal flaw of mass communication and human psychology.

Then maybe mass activism is the wrong approach with such a powerful and dangerous tool as these substances.

Re: DMT, Derealization, and Depersonalization

#42

Post by SamoyedFurFluff »

jmfldn wrote: post #26
jmfldn wrote: post #13

I'm not sure if I've had these exact experiences, but something related perhaps, albeit milder. When I was in my early twenties I consumed a lot of cannabis in the form of hash cakes one night and it triggered a panic attack. What was scary about the panic attack was this feeling of the world around me feeling dreamlike, or like I was in a dream I couldn't wake up from. It was like there's normally this safe ground w…

I found this quote in "Notes On A Nervous planet" by the wonderful Matt Haig a few years ago. It was the first time I felt "seen" and like someone else could articulate this weird feeling I sometimes had... "People who have never had a period of living with anxiety and panic don’t understand that the realness of you is an actual feeling that you can lose. People take it for granted. You don’t get up in the morning an…

That’s how I feel all the time, a lack of self. Never been scared by it. It’s the opposite that’s scary. That you will always be you, a solid and weighted thing, a thing of blood and memory.

Re: DMT, Derealization, and Depersonalization

#43

Post by mtlmtlmtlmtl »

quechimba wrote: post #32

I wouldn't recommend anyone to smoke DMT or changa, it's way too strong and it's difficult to make sense out of the experience afterwards. Ayahuasca is an amazing medicine. If you decide to do it, do it in the Peruvian Amazon, read the reviews carefully of each retreat center before you decide on which one to go to. Follow the diet and any other restrictions, this is especially important AFTER drinking ayahuasca. The…

Don't use kambo at all, period. That shit is seriously dangerous. Edit: had to google rapé. Don't use rapé either, which is just a name for nicotina rustica, a tobacco plant that has a lot more nicotine than normal tobacco. So unless you're a smoker already, it will just make you vomit a lot. And it could even kill you since nicotine is extremely acutely toxic.

And in general, I would recommend against travelling to the rainforest to take ayahuasca. It's not going to do anything for you that you can't do with some locally growing mushrooms, or a fitting synthetic drug(2c-b is very safe, for instance). You're much better off integrating and going through the experience with friends and family than a bunch of complete strangers.

Re: DMT, Derealization, and Depersonalization

#44

Post by almost_usual »

empath-nirvana wrote: post #36
photochemsyn wrote: post #14

This effect is not uncommon with respect to powerful psychedelics but it does have a mechanistic neurological explanation which in turn helps explain the psychological (or spiritual if you like) knock-on effects. It's really the same kind of thing underlying optical illusions, such as the dancing grid dots illusion: https://mathworld.wolfram.com/ScintillatingGridIllusion.html Fundamentally your brain is interpreting…

I dealt with episodes of this when I was using MDMA regularly and it's not a problem of like, intellectually dealing with being confronted with how the brain works, because I was fully aware of all this and had no problem conceptualizing what was going on with me abstractly, but derealization and depersonalization is a very strong _feeling_ that is very hard to shake and you can't like rationalize yourself out of it.…

Right, this is like explaining the probability of a plane crash is statistically insignificant to someone who has a fear of flying. They can grok the logic and still _feel_ terror.

Re: DMT, Derealization, and Depersonalization

#45

Post by Garrrrrr »

throwaway121abc wrote: post #17

This really hits home with me. I didn't read it, but in certain circumstances I think psychedelics work against you. Something similar happened to me and it feels like the last year has been hard because I've been a mix of depressed and apathetic. Like my liveliness disappeared. I'm speaking up because I wish I heard this before... that being said, here's a hypothesis why it goes wrong or right. The key is that there…

This comment really hits home with me. I didn't read it, but

Re: DMT, Derealization, and Depersonalization

#46

Post by pcthrowaway »

throwanem wrote: post #10

Nobody wants to discuss potential harms in a grassroots advocacy movement for legalization or normalization - we saw the same thing in decades past with cannabis. The reasons are understandable, but the results aren't great. I would rather see more openness up front even at the cost of complicating the message, than see folks end up with this kind of trouble because advocates chose not to be as honest about the risks…

For what it's worth, I know hundreds of people who have done DMT and none of them have had the long-term effects described in the interview (not to negate that person's experience though, just to provide context about how rare it might be)

I personally have more negative long-term effects (maybe a mild, persistent derealization and depersonalization, but also a complete lack of ability to think clearly) from LSD.

I haven't done DMT in years, but when I did use it, I found a sense of peace and relaxation afterwards that I actually haven't encountered with any other psychedelic

Re: DMT, Derealization, and Depersonalization

#47

Post by goolz »

hezralig wrote: post #39
quechimba wrote: post #32

I wouldn't recommend anyone to smoke DMT or changa, it's way too strong and it's difficult to make sense out of the experience afterwards. Ayahuasca is an amazing medicine. If you decide to do it, do it in the Peruvian Amazon, read the reviews carefully of each retreat center before you decide on which one to go to. Follow the diet and any other restrictions, this is especially important AFTER drinking ayahuasca. The…

I have had great experiences smoking changa and having therapeutic breakthroughs in my understanding of my life, biases I was unaware of, and new perspective in approaches to tough problems. I think the devil is in the dose.

Yep! I am a big proponent of drug testing/harm-reduction and dosage is a huge problem a lot of people face. With experience comes a good sense of what you can handle but for those new to this check out resources like Erowid (we love you).

Re: DMT, Derealization, and Depersonalization

#48

Post by slibhb »

yowlingcat wrote: post #18
slibhb wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That dose/setting was the trigger here is pure speculation. Really, we should just leave it at: "sometimes, for unknown reasons, these drugs can fuck you up for years".

You could say that about any medication with side effects, so really that statement doesn't say much. I think a better rephrasing would be that these substances are powerful, should be treated with respect, and have the potential for harm if misused. Furthermore, I think that it should be said that learning to use them should be done with an experienced mentor, in a controlled environment, and in a dosing ramp up tha…

> You could say that about any medication with side effects, so really that statement doesn't say much.

No you couldn't -- it depends how well the medication is understood/how much research exists.

> I think a better rephrasing would be that these substances are powerful, should be treated with respect, and have the potential for harm if misused. Furthermore, I think that it should be said that learning to use them should be done with an experienced mentor, in a controlled environment, and in a dosing ramp up that doesn't start off with a "heroic" dose.

We have no idea if "respecting" psychedelics has any effect, we don't have a good definition of "misuse" (outside of "if it negatively impacts your life, you're misusing it"), the idea of "mentors" is ill-defined and there's no evidence that it helps, and there's no evidence that "ramping up" is an effective way to avoid negative side effects.

You're offering fake knowledge along the lines of "well something bad happened to him so he didn't 'respect' the drug". All you actually know is that you did drugs and didn't suffer negative side effects like this guy.

Re: DMT, Derealization, and Depersonalization

#49

Post by throwanem »

pcthrowaway wrote: post #46
throwanem wrote: post #10

Nobody wants to discuss potential harms in a grassroots advocacy movement for legalization or normalization - we saw the same thing in decades past with cannabis. The reasons are understandable, but the results aren't great. I would rather see more openness up front even at the cost of complicating the message, than see folks end up with this kind of trouble because advocates chose not to be as honest about the risks…

For what it's worth, I know hundreds of people who have done DMT and none of them have had the long-term effects described in the interview (not to negate that person's experience though, just to provide context about how rare it might be) I personally have more negative long-term effects (maybe a mild, persistent derealization and depersonalization, but also a complete lack of ability to think clearly) from LSD. I h…

No one is saying that psychedelics can't be used safely and be effective. No one, too, is saying that psychedelics must be used safely to be effective. Your comment argues toward the first, but it's the second that's under discussion.

Re: DMT, Derealization, and Depersonalization

#50

Post by InSteady »

slibhb wrote: post #16
isoprophlex wrote: post #6

Poor guy. That seems like it was totally preventable, and not the easiest way to enlightenment or confronting anxiety. I'm definitely not victim blaming here, yet I feel that this has to be reiterated often..: People, please never take unknown doses of drugs and/or have other people pressure you into taking drugs and/or do drugs in a shitty setting. You will probably have a bad time.

That dose/setting was the trigger here is pure speculation. Really, we should just leave it at: "sometimes, for unknown reasons, these drugs can fuck you up for years".

It is indeed all speculation at this point, but that doesn't mean we can't use intuition and educated guesses to minimize risk and hopefully build on cultural wisdom regarding psychedelics until the science catches up (which I expect will take a loooong time given how complex this is).

A synopsis of his account:

1. The first time he tripped he took an unknown dose in an unfamiliar setting completely by himself and experienced some expended periods of "panic, anxiety, a lot of bad feelings." Descriptions like he thought he was dead, lost all sense of time, forgot he took mushrooms, felt like everything had gone to hell, etc. Some of his phrasing implies he didn't really even know what to expect from the drug, as in he just took a random dose with no understanding of what it might do to him, and after an initial period of enjoyment had a hellish trip (but came back just fine).

2. The [??, second?] time he tripped, he took an unknown dose in an unfamiliar setting and his mind/body was sending him signals of "don't do this please," which it sounds like the ever insidious peer pressure was ultimately able to override. Some of his phrasing again implies that he did not know what to expect from smoking DMT (as opposed to other psychedelics). He specifically mentions being significantly uncomfortable before and during his consumption of the drug.

I think it would be obtuse to pretend we can't see any potential signs in these two stories about where he might have gone wrong, and what he might have done instead to lessen the risks of such an extreme, bad reaction to these powerful drugs. Of course we should not make categorical statements about how to avoid lasting damage from psychedelics, but we can certain spread knowledge about best practices which this person has blatantly ignored on several levels. Not blaming the guy, we all make mistakes and it is unfortunate that sometimes those mistakes have long-lasting or permanent negative effects. But throwing our hands up in the air and spreading the idea "you can't know anything about these drugs except that they randomly might break your brain" is not the correct response to stories like this. It could be true that psychedelics could randomly break anyone's brain at any time, but we just don't know that. There is a lot that we do know in the way of smart steps to take to minimize risk, along the lines of:

Know your drug

Know and trust your source, and/or test the drug prior to use

Know your dose

Know your body

Know your family history

Know your setting

Be sure you feel safe in your setting

Dose conservatively

Have a sober friend

Don't be afraid to abort the trip at the last minute

If you have a terrible experience and come out of it OK, chalk it up to lesson learned and move on to other life experiences.. don't keep trying psychedelics.

* please note that each of these bullet points merit a lot of elaboration, and as always, it behooves people to do extensive research with careful note-taking and planning before undertaking potential risky and life-altering behaviors and activities.

Post reply on HN