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DMT, Derealization, and Depersonalization

ecstaticintegration.org

11–20 of 74 posts

Re: DMT, Derealization, and Depersonalization

#11
post #2

I have had derelization from acute stress but it was never disturbing to me and it went away when my environment changed Through the years I have dabbled with psychadelics with no downsides or upsides untill I decided to smoke cannabis for the first time , I had a very strong reaction that put me in depersonalization hell, it lasted 4 years , thankfully this was a few months before the lockdown . I was surprised to l…

I had a similar experience. What I think was a combination of cannabis and stress gave me intense DPDR that I'm still not over while I've had no real downsides to some pretty hefty LSD usage over the years. I think set and setting plays just as important a role in cannabis usage as it does in psychedelics. I doubt I will ever be normal again at this point, its been over five years including a lot of time where I lived at a Buddhist monastery trying to understand it.

Re: DMT, Derealization, and Depersonalization

#12
post #2

I have had derelization from acute stress but it was never disturbing to me and it went away when my environment changed Through the years I have dabbled with psychadelics with no downsides or upsides untill I decided to smoke cannabis for the first time , I had a very strong reaction that put me in depersonalization hell, it lasted 4 years , thankfully this was a few months before the lockdown . I was surprised to l…

What’s it like to experience derealization? For some reason I’m reading about it twice in a week suddenly, and I was never aware such an experience existed; I read a story about someone who slowly started suffering from derealization more and more, and was having trouble dealing with it after several years. It sounds frightening.

It is frightening, or more like just anxiety inducing ya know. I've only had it a couple times, the worst of which was withdrawing from cigarettes. It's like you suddenly realize your experience of reality has changed. Like just now you can see the frame around your existence, like your watching through a window and not just being in it. Except that that analogy only addresses visual acuity which the full experience is that but with all senses and especially the sense of self. Derealization is really just the best word to a profoundly strange and indescribable experience.

I've also taken drugs that enforce that sensation and it's much more interesting and tolerable when you've done it intentionally, know what's happening, and that it will end. Those mind states have allowed me to explore emotions and sensations from a rather removed point of view and have some realizations (pun? Not intendes) that i wouldn't have otherwise.

If you wear glasses, chances are you've learned to ignore the constant frames around your vision. I'd like you to intentionally notice them. Do you see how the vision you experience could be likened to a movie screen? You can look around but you are trapped inside this frame. Imagine if you weren't wearing glasses but you came to notice the frame at the edge of your vision. And upon noticing, found yourself incapable of slipping back into your regular sight. Like you've been pushed back and out of yourself, and you have no way to get back in. You're still in control but it's just that, _control_. It's not you, it's just control, and you can't make it you, no matter what you do. That's at least what it's felt like for me.

Re: DMT, Derealization, and Depersonalization

#13
I'm not sure if I've had these exact experiences, but something related perhaps, albeit milder. When I was in my early twenties I consumed a lot of cannabis in the form of hash cakes one night and it triggered a panic attack. What was scary about the panic attack was this feeling of the world around me feeling dreamlike, or like I was in a dream I couldn't wake up from. It was like there's normally this safe ground we all walk on, and we don't know its even there, and that implicit feeling we all carry with us can drift away. It wasn't psychosis, I think it was just a by-product of anxiety, which in itself is a very mind altering experience. If you've ever had a panic attack or experienced severe anxiety states you'll know what I mean. It's effectively a bad trip, your perception is altered by the cortisol and adrenaline coursing through your brain and the resulting mental exhaustion and depressed emotions that can arise alongside it.

I was predisposed to anxiety already, and I think this experience led me into developing mild to moderate panic disorder which was driven by fear of experiencing this state again. So it become a vicious circle. A fear of fear which, ironically, became a trigger for the feared thing. I believe it was made worse by my highly philosophical brain, and a deep immersion in existential philosophies. In particular Buddhism. So I was already used to a worldview which was challenging existentially let's say. Looking back, I was probably too young at the time, and maybe too anxious, to be immersed in all this naval gazing given my mental health.

Decades later I'm OK, but I have residual panic feelings surfacing sometimes. The difference now is that I don't identify with them, I just see them as fleeting feelings producing a distorted sense of reality. The secret with anxiety, for me at least, is to not care if you feel anxious and to let it pass.

Re: DMT, Derealization, and Depersonalization

#14
This effect is not uncommon with respect to powerful psychedelics but it does have a mechanistic neurological explanation which in turn helps explain the psychological (or spiritual if you like) knock-on effects. It's really the same kind of thing underlying optical illusions, such as the dancing grid dots illusion:

https://mathworld.wolfram.com/ScintillatingGridIllusion.html

Fundamentally your brain is interpreting signals coming in from your optic nerves at all times so you're not really 'directly experiencing reality', you're interpreting and processing a stream of data and constructing a map of reality from that data. This is usually all done unconsciously, but what psychedelics do at a mechanistic level is interfere with the neuronal processing of that data. You might get a crossover of memories feeding into the visual stream at some level of processing, hence 'seeing visions', or the sound channel might get mixed with the visual channel ('seeing sounnds and hearing colors').

It's not too surprising that this can have profound effects on people's psychology if they were not expecting or aware of this underlying mechanism. It's a concept in philosophy, as well, I believe it's called 'radical skepticism' or some such, the belief that nothing is real, and is in the same category as the simulation hypothesis, i.e. the belief we are in a Matrix VR world. This could plausibly lead to dissociation from normal goal-oriented behavior and result in full blown mental illness in extreme cases.

Personally, I don't really see the difference between 'base reality' and 'perfect simulation' if there's no scientific method to distinguish between the two. If a flaming angel (or UFO) appears in the sky above me, I'll still try to collect its electomagnetic spectrum. Similarly, most people can recognize when they're under the influence of a drug and when they're completely sober - at least, with experience. A first-time user could definitely get these two confused, with dangerous consequences, hence all the warnings about set and setting, trip-sitters, etc.

Regardless, those with a fragile grasp on reality or who are lacking a solid psychological core self-identity should definitely think twice about taking powerful psychedelics.

Re: DMT, Derealization, and Depersonalization

#15
post #2

I have had derelization from acute stress but it was never disturbing to me and it went away when my environment changed Through the years I have dabbled with psychadelics with no downsides or upsides untill I decided to smoke cannabis for the first time , I had a very strong reaction that put me in depersonalization hell, it lasted 4 years , thankfully this was a few months before the lockdown . I was surprised to l…

What’s it like to experience derealization? For some reason I’m reading about it twice in a week suddenly, and I was never aware such an experience existed; I read a story about someone who slowly started suffering from derealization more and more, and was having trouble dealing with it after several years. It sounds frightening.

Derelization feels like the world isn't real , there doesn't seem like there is a connection between you and the person you are talking to or the world , to me it wasn't scary , if fact it was very interesting, I've had it for a total of 3 months only.

depersonalization is hell this time if feel like you arnt real , the effects of depersonalization includes the following . 1.Visual disturbances : everything feels like low fps and blurry . 2. Spatial disturbance : it feels like you are controlling your body like a robot 3. Physical sensation : touching your body feels weird as if it didn't feel like it used to , the sensations and even the size of your limps when you grab it feels different. Even looking at your self in the mirror feels like looking at another person

What helped was a short guide online how to get out of it . First is to accept it second is to understand that this is purely a response to stress , it's a way the mind helps to protect you , stay calm and you will get out of it .

Re: DMT, Derealization, and Depersonalization

#16

Poor guy. That seems like it was totally preventable, and not the easiest way to enlightenment or confronting anxiety. I'm definitely not victim blaming here, yet I feel that this has to be reiterated often..: People, please never take unknown doses of drugs and/or have other people pressure you into taking drugs and/or do drugs in a shitty setting. You will probably have a bad time.

That dose/setting was the trigger here is pure speculation.

Really, we should just leave it at: "sometimes, for unknown reasons, these drugs can fuck you up for years".

Re: DMT, Derealization, and Depersonalization

#17
This really hits home with me.

I didn't read it, but in certain circumstances I think psychedelics work against you. Something similar happened to me and it feels like the last year has been hard because I've been a mix of depressed and apathetic. Like my liveliness disappeared. I'm speaking up because I wish I heard this before... that being said, here's a hypothesis why it goes wrong or right.

The key is that there is a difference between: 1) being high 2) really feeling it

For example, depending on how they make the Aya, you can sometimes be very high, but not feel it in the body. I think this uneventful experience translates to the real world afterwards. So your very high but nothing mystical happened.

If psychedelics ever do have a place in society, we should try for experiences (thru brew ingredients) that make the person feel like something profound happened. These can be the hardest experiences (or amazing), but not doing it this way may be worse- you feel derealized/apathetic/callous.

If we're not careful, there is going to be a backlash around it. Or worse, some people will fade and we'll lose some of our culture. Let's be careful, study the effects, and make it work!

Re: DMT, Derealization, and Depersonalization

#18
post #16

Poor guy. That seems like it was totally preventable, and not the easiest way to enlightenment or confronting anxiety. I'm definitely not victim blaming here, yet I feel that this has to be reiterated often..: People, please never take unknown doses of drugs and/or have other people pressure you into taking drugs and/or do drugs in a shitty setting. You will probably have a bad time.

That dose/setting was the trigger here is pure speculation. Really, we should just leave it at: "sometimes, for unknown reasons, these drugs can fuck you up for years".

You could say that about any medication with side effects, so really that statement doesn't say much.

I think a better rephrasing would be that these substances are powerful, should be treated with respect, and have the potential for harm if misused. Furthermore, I think that it should be said that learning to use them should be done with an experienced mentor, in a controlled environment, and in a dosing ramp up that doesn't start off with a "heroic" dose.

This used to be part of the cultural fabric of the more underground cultural aspects of psychonaut culture in times gone past; and before that, in how indigenous cultures have utilized these substances.

But, I think the land rush in the commercialization and mainstreaming of the substance and its experience has resulted in an erosion around the the idea of responsible utilization that used to be there. Very similar arc, IMO, to the cannabis legalization cultural arc.

Re: DMT, Derealization, and Depersonalization

#19
That happened to me, only I was 16, and it was before Google was around to tell me what happened. I would later come to find it was some form of ego death; though I've never heard it put the way the interviewee puts it, but he describes it well. It messed me up for almost a decade. It was this immediate change, not unlike when someone dies, only no one else believes that person is gone, only you realize it; for everyone else that person still exists and is just getting weirder. Kinda hard to explain to people what happened without them being dismissive cause they once took lsd in a van at a festival. Its not the same as a bad trip, and for me there was no recovery.

Eh, shit happens and then you die. No one tells you, you lose parts along the way, too. But, you do.

Re: DMT, Derealization, and Depersonalization

#20
post #13

I'm not sure if I've had these exact experiences, but something related perhaps, albeit milder. When I was in my early twenties I consumed a lot of cannabis in the form of hash cakes one night and it triggered a panic attack. What was scary about the panic attack was this feeling of the world around me feeling dreamlike, or like I was in a dream I couldn't wake up from. It was like there's normally this safe ground w…

> The secret with anxiety, for me at least, is to not care if you feel anxious and to let it pass.

I think that's very insightful, since so often the "panic loop" is driven first and foremost by the anxiety over feeling anxious. People feel the stirrings of anxiety, and having had a panic attack, they're terrified of that sensation returning, which fuels their anxiety and focuses them on those feelings. It's a vicious circle which is hard to break without practice, and for some, medication.

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