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Tesla Fleet Telemetry

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Re: Tesla Fleet Telemetry

#121

Post by hef19898 »

kramerger wrote: post #117
hef19898 wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it is in the EU, yes you do. Just compare the difference between what Toyota does with customer data in the US and the EU. Preferably, I can remove the sim card myself and all connectivity stops. If I cannot do that hardware wise myself, I havw to assume I am tracked. The different OEM approaches between the US and EU show you how important legislation is. Especiqlly since Tesla's zrack record regarding privacy is…

> Tesla's zrack record regarding privacy is abysmal. Any particular examples you can share with us?

Tesla employees sharing memes derived from intimate in car camera footage? Cuts it for me.

Also, why would I want cameras inside my car? But that question is off topic.

Re: Tesla Fleet Telemetry

#122

Post by NotYourLawyer »

dcow wrote: post #90
KennyBlanken wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So you really have nothing to worry about if your bank is competent. US Banks not only use SMS for 2FA, many of them REQUIRE it for 2FA. They also tend to require "security questions" that are usually easily guessed or researched. Again, information that makes it easier, not harder, to get into your account. Good luck trying to find a bank that uses hardware tokens. > Why is it inherently bad to trust a 3rd party?…

Sorry that US Bank leaves you exposed to a sim-jacking attack which, if they use Twilio, is mitigated by their verify API. I don't need hardware tokens and full custody of my financial information. I Just Don't. That's literally the entire point of a bank. They do that for me. You don't need to lecture me on how trust delegation works. I mean you use a bank right? You trust a 3rd party with your actual cash. Plaid ha…

They’re not subject to banking regulations. Their privacy policy is a dumpster fire. They offer me no benefits.

Why would I use them?

Re: Tesla Fleet Telemetry

#123

Post by dcow »

NotYourLawyer wrote: post #122
dcow wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry that US Bank leaves you exposed to a sim-jacking attack which, if they use Twilio, is mitigated by their verify API. I don't need hardware tokens and full custody of my financial information. I Just Don't. That's literally the entire point of a bank. They do that for me. You don't need to lecture me on how trust delegation works. I mean you use a bank right? You trust a 3rd party with your actual cash. Plaid ha…

They’re not subject to banking regulations. Their privacy policy is a dumpster fire. They offer me no benefits. Why would I use them?

They also serve as an auditing service, of sorts. Instead of you having to gather a bunch of bank statements to verify income, Plaid pulls those numbers for the service provider. The service provider can trust Plaid as an intermediary whose reputation would be damaged if they helped people lie or were otherwise delivering unreliable information. In my experience Plaid is a huge UX improvement and if you use them in OAuth mode you literally have no reason to criticize because the entire argument falls apart (they don’t store your credentials and can only do what you authorize granularly, using the system as designed).

Anyway my bone to pick is with the “3rd party instantly bad” mentality. Your bank probably uses 1000 and 1 3rd parties too. Our banking regulations are focused on making sure money depositors aren’t taken advantage of and harmed by unhealthy or risky asset management practices. If you don’t find Plaid valuable then thats fine, you do you. I do wonder how you can know that without using them though…

Re: Tesla Fleet Telemetry

#124

Post by [deleted] »

hef19898 wrote: post #121
kramerger wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Tesla's zrack record regarding privacy is abysmal. Any particular examples you can share with us?

Tesla employees sharing memes derived from intimate in car camera footage? Cuts it for me. Also, why would I want cameras inside my car? But that question is off topic.

[deleted]

Re: Tesla Fleet Telemetry

#125

Post by NotYourLawyer »

dcow wrote: post #123
NotYourLawyer wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They’re not subject to banking regulations. Their privacy policy is a dumpster fire. They offer me no benefits. Why would I use them?

They also serve as an auditing service, of sorts. Instead of you having to gather a bunch of bank statements to verify income, Plaid pulls those numbers for the service provider. The service provider can trust Plaid as an intermediary whose reputation would be damaged if they helped people lie or were otherwise delivering unreliable information. In my experience Plaid is a huge UX improvement and if you use them in O…

I’m not taking out a loan, I’m sending money. Everything they offer is irrelevant to me.

Re: Tesla Fleet Telemetry

#126

Post by dcow »

NotYourLawyer wrote: post #91
dcow wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First off, Plaid uses OAuth when possible to do things the right way. So you really have nothing to worry about if your bank is competent. Second, Plaid will use app passwords if you have 2FA enabled and your bank supports them. This is the correct way to handle that scenario. Third, Plaid saves me a lot of trouble and I have come to trust them. I am happy to delegate responsibility to them. Why is it inherently bad…

I use a non-enormous regional bank. I have no idea if it qualifies as competent. Also, have a quick look at the "data we collect" section of their privacy policy and see if you still feel the same way: https://plaid.com/legal/ It's shockingly broad, and 99% of it is stuff that they have no business collecting when all I'm trying to do is buy a car.

Of course they collect this data! Do you understand what Plaid does?

Here's what happens:

Tesla says I want to verify that a human is purchasing a car, take a deposit, and get the information needed to pre-approve the customer for the loan required to buy it.

Plaid says, we can do that for you. Plaid has you link your bank account so it can 1) verify your identity, and 2) give Tesla the information needed to debit your account. Then Plaid pulls your account history and asks you to link additional accounts as needed to get the relevant information for the underwriting process.

This allows Tesla to complete this process entirely online without a dealership in about 2 minutes. If you've ever bought a car traditionally, applied for a loan, or even linked bank accounts into a budgeting app, this is an incredible UX win for the user. Shocking, even.

Re: Tesla Fleet Telemetry

#127

Post by mrguyorama »

kramerger wrote: post #117
hef19898 wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it is in the EU, yes you do. Just compare the difference between what Toyota does with customer data in the US and the EU. Preferably, I can remove the sim card myself and all connectivity stops. If I cannot do that hardware wise myself, I havw to assume I am tracked. The different OEM approaches between the US and EU show you how important legislation is. Especiqlly since Tesla's zrack record regarding privacy is…

> Tesla's zrack record regarding privacy is abysmal. Any particular examples you can share with us?

The times Elon has shared in car video feeds to try and blame the driver for autopilot crashes, without that driver's authorization to do so. Legal? Sure, according to every stupid, untested EULA that everyone has to sign, but you didn't ask about legality.

Re: Tesla Fleet Telemetry

#128

Post by mrguyorama »

hatthew wrote: post #36
sodality2 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's how we got algorithms that optimize outrage, because outrage and stress create massive engagement. I mean, in this case, it's not a "problem", it's a predetermined goal. It's not some sort of accident that they optimize for engagement, it's explicitly what they want to optimize for. The fact that it causes harmful interaction isn't an unwanted side effect, at least for the social media company, but a means t…

It is absolutely an accident. Engagement recommender systems do not optimize for outrage, they optimize for engagement. It just turns out that outrage causes engagement. The difference is that at no point is there a human who says "Let's cause outrage!" It's the algorithms that figure out the connection, which is the point being made by the person you replied to.

The second it became clear that outrage causes more engagement than anything else, using an engagement optimizing system became equivalent to pushing for outrage. You cannot do otherwise without EXTREME intervention.

Re: Tesla Fleet Telemetry

#129

Post by sroussey »

hef19898 wrote: post #115
dotancohen wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With a Tesla you do have that choice. https://www.tesla.com/en_eu/legal/privacy

If it is in the EU, yes you do. Just compare the difference between what Toyota does with customer data in the US and the EU. Preferably, I can remove the sim card myself and all connectivity stops. If I cannot do that hardware wise myself, I havw to assume I am tracked. The different OEM approaches between the US and EU show you how important legislation is. Especiqlly since Tesla's zrack record regarding privacy is…

What bout California?

Re: Tesla Fleet Telemetry

#130

Post by bonestamp2 »

VectorLock wrote: post #105
bonestamp2 wrote: post #17

I wonder if they started building this API to comply with the newer Massachusetts right to repair law, then just made it public when the feds told automakers to ignore the Massachusetts law.

That was the first thing I thought of when I saw this post and read the code a bit. Also fuck the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration for telling auto makers to ignore a very well intentioned state law.

Agreed. It was well intentioned, but I think it went too far by trying to prescribe the solution. Their 2012 law was much better written and it was easy for automakers to implement (I did the technical implementation for one automaker).
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