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Leo Tolstoy on why people drink (2014)

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Re: Leo Tolstoy on why people drink (2014)

#241

Post by engineeringwoke »

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #208
bambax wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Drinking drowns creativity. I can do many many things almost properly while drunk, but one thing I can't do is write anything good. It's possible that's what we're after when we drink: stop the flow of ideas. That's one meaning of "stupefy".

Are you sure? >Alcohol has played a central role in the creative lives of some of the most famous authors of the last few centuries. Lewis Hyde notes in his essay Alcohol and Poetry that four of the six Americans who have won the Nobel Prize for Literature were alcoholics, namely William Faulkner, Eugene O'Neill, Ernest Hemingway and John Steinbeck. https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/books/booze-as-muse-write...

From what I have read, they all wrote when they were sober, not when they were drunk.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/henrydevries/2018/12/11/ernest-...

Re: Leo Tolstoy on why people drink (2014)

#242

Post by projektfu »

com2kid wrote: post #68
giraffe_lady wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Untreated or late diagnosed ADHD people are ridiculously overrepresented in drug & alcohol recovery programs. It's honestly chilling and it prevents me from taking this in the probably more lighthearted spirit that was intended.

Fun fact! Over 50 percent of people with untreated ADHD will have problems with substance abuse at some point in their life! Oh wait, that isn't fun at all. ADHD is real and untreated it can (and often does) destroy lives. (Also: People with untreated ADHD have 3x the gen-pop rate of car accidents!)

Yep, and thankfully the FAA will allow you to fly with undiagnosed untreated ADHD but not with treated ADHD. Because the NTSB gets bored, I guess.

Re: Leo Tolstoy on why people drink (2014)

#243

Post by garyrob »

Al-Khwarizmi wrote: post #178
thenoblesunfish wrote: post #114

Let's consider this quote "All human life, we may say, consists solely of these two activities: (1) bringing one’s activities into harmony with conscience, or (2) hiding from oneself the indications of conscience in order to be able to continue to live as before." Note that he has defined all of life as two points about "one" and "oneself". This is why I and I assume many others roll their eyes. Because Tolstoy, and…

That's one important reason, but there's another one that is even more neglected: it just... tastes good (for those of us who like it, of course). For example, as a 90 kg man, for me drinking a single 33cl bottle of beer has pretty much the same effect as drinking water, i.e., I don't feel anything at all (note that I don't drive, in that context it would probably still be relevant). So when I have a single beer with…

I agree with this totally. For me, the strongest manifestation is cognac. A good cognac is just fantastic. The main thing is the tail, that just goes on and on in different stages of taste and sensation. I'd drink it all day if I could. But if I did... er... that would not be good.

Re: Leo Tolstoy on why people drink (2014)

#244

Post by garyrob »

voidmain0001 wrote: post #234
thenoblesunfish wrote: post #114

Let's consider this quote "All human life, we may say, consists solely of these two activities: (1) bringing one’s activities into harmony with conscience, or (2) hiding from oneself the indications of conscience in order to be able to continue to live as before." Note that he has defined all of life as two points about "one" and "oneself". This is why I and I assume many others roll their eyes. Because Tolstoy, and…

To say that alcohol distills down to being able to socialize doesn’t fit. Socializing is not hard. Are you at a party? Approach people you don’t know the way you want to be approached. Wear a sincere smile, give some distance, give your name, ask them who they know at the party, respond with who you know. Most likely you will know the same people so chat about that. Say where you live then ask them where they live. L…

> To say that alcohol distills down to being able to socialize doesn’t fit. Socializing is not hard. Are you at a party? Approach people you don’t know the way you want to be approached. Wear a sincere smile, give some distance, give your name, ask them who they know at the party, respond with who you know.

YMMV. If you have real social anxiety, the above is just about impossible. People who haven't experienced it just don't know. It's extremely difficult to understand if you haven't been there. Normal shyness is a different animal. It's sort of like depression. Although people may think you should just snap out of it, you can't.

And alcohol definitely can help. Believe me, I know. My life was pretty much dominated by social anxiety in my college years and 20's. Gradually it's gotten much better. I never drank a lot, but in those social situations where my self-consciousness made it pretty much impossible to do as you suggest, having some alcohol really made a positive difference. (This was long ago, I'm 67 now.)

I don't recommend using it that way if you also have any other characteristics that could turn you into an alcoholic, because it's possible you'll stop using it and it will start using you. It's dangerous. It can destroy your life. But for me, in specific situations when I needed some help in order to be less self-conscious and more out there, it did help. (Therapy pretty much didn't, for me, but in recent years, meditation does.)

Re: Leo Tolstoy on why people drink (2014)

#245

Post by joenot443 »

engineeringwoke wrote: post #241
pbhjpbhj wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you sure? >Alcohol has played a central role in the creative lives of some of the most famous authors of the last few centuries. Lewis Hyde notes in his essay Alcohol and Poetry that four of the six Americans who have won the Nobel Prize for Literature were alcoholics, namely William Faulkner, Eugene O'Neill, Ernest Hemingway and John Steinbeck. https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/books/booze-as-muse-write...

From what I have read, they all wrote when they were sober, not when they were drunk. https://www.forbes.com/sites/henrydevries/2018/12/11/ernest-...

In "Hunter: The Strange and Savage Life of Hunter S. Thompson", it's made very clear that Hunter did _not_ write while he was sober. An excerpt of his daily schedule -

9:00(pm) starts snorting cocaine seriously

10:00 drops acid

11:00 Chartreuse, cocaine, grass

11:30 cocaine, etc, etc.

12:00 midnight, Hunter S. Thompson is ready to write

12:05-6:00 a.m. Chartreuse, cocaine, grass, Chivas, coffee, Heineken, clove cigarettes, grapefruit, Dunhills, orange juice, gin, continuous pornographic movies.

Re: Leo Tolstoy on why people drink (2014)

#246

Post by thankyoucd7 »

voidmain0001 wrote: post #234
thenoblesunfish wrote: post #114

Let's consider this quote "All human life, we may say, consists solely of these two activities: (1) bringing one’s activities into harmony with conscience, or (2) hiding from oneself the indications of conscience in order to be able to continue to live as before." Note that he has defined all of life as two points about "one" and "oneself". This is why I and I assume many others roll their eyes. Because Tolstoy, and…

To say that alcohol distills down to being able to socialize doesn’t fit. Socializing is not hard. Are you at a party? Approach people you don’t know the way you want to be approached. Wear a sincere smile, give some distance, give your name, ask them who they know at the party, respond with who you know. Most likely you will know the same people so chat about that. Say where you live then ask them where they live. L…

Responses like this are a great indicator of never having had troubles socializing. Some hints of what might go wrong for people more pathetic than you could ever imagine existing:

* Not having the chance to go to a party. (i.e. never being invited, or being in government-mandated house arrest for years to accomodate for other people who might die of a certain disease. Or both.)

* Having the chance to go to a party, but still refusing because of the dread going to a party induces. (Possibly related to trauma caused by previously going to a party, see below. (Or any trauma caused by other humans, really.))

* Actually going to a party, but not having the communication skills to naturally start a conversation with some random person.

* Starting a conversation nevertheless, only to come to the same conclusion (also traumatizing yourself in the process after you get ignored).

* As an extension: trying to join a conversation, but being ignored by all participants for being uninteresting, annoying, weird, or simply ugly. (Or all of the former.)

* Sitting/standing alone for most of the party because of the aforementioned problems, then after a few occasions deciding that surely this wasn't worth the time and never going to a party again.

Alcohol may or may not help with these problems. (It doesn't for me, so in the end I just gave up.)

Re: Leo Tolstoy on why people drink (2014)

#247

Post by voidmain0001 »

thankyoucd7 wrote: post #246
voidmain0001 wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To say that alcohol distills down to being able to socialize doesn’t fit. Socializing is not hard. Are you at a party? Approach people you don’t know the way you want to be approached. Wear a sincere smile, give some distance, give your name, ask them who they know at the party, respond with who you know. Most likely you will know the same people so chat about that. Say where you live then ask them where they live. L…

Responses like this are a great indicator of never having had troubles socializing. Some hints of what might go wrong for people more pathetic than you could ever imagine existing: * Not having the chance to go to a party. (i.e. never being invited, or being in government-mandated house arrest for years to accomodate for other people who might die of a certain disease. Or both.) * Having the chance to go to a party,…

I am introverted and I have had to go out of my way to do what I suggested. So, replace party with workplace, or grocery store, or laundromat. The setting doesn't matter. Health issues can't be changed and that's a tragedy but still the person will interact with health care workers and social workers. Use them for socializing. Is not having communication skills really a valid excuse? I assume we have all learned some sort of skill to support our adult selves financially so learn to communicate. I will admit that the point about someone writing you off as ugly, weird, annoying, not interesting is tough as I have felt that. I had to learn to be sincerely interested in the whole person and not the superficial. If the person has a defensive wall up that doesn't let me get to know them then I won't press it.

Re: Leo Tolstoy on why people drink (2014)

#248

Post by jalapenos »

moffkalast wrote: post #185
jiggywiggy wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Live isnt very painful for me. Still enjoy a beer a bit too much. When I'm super happy and then have a beer it just adds to it. It also can help me relax if I'm working to much. One can argue it's not needed, but at times nice.

I'm pretty sure Tolstoy isn't talking about a weekly beer, but the Russian type of alcoholism of downing an entire bottle of vodka every five minutes. See the wiki: > According to a 2011 report by the World Health Organization, annual per capita consumption of alcohol in Russia was about 15.76 litres of pure alcohol, the fourth-highest volume in Europe. > Alcoholism has been a problem throughout the country's history…

I feel like if I lived in Russia I'd have no difficulty meeting that number

Re: Leo Tolstoy on why people drink (2014)

#249

Post by parthianshotgun »

moffkalast wrote: post #182
dalbasal wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Indeed, for the social aspect, everyone is already fully aware it's not needed, and that they can have fun socializations without it, because of their childhoods. Sure... you can also learn everything a Stanford class teaches online. You can find alternatives for the networking aspects, etc. Still... universities tend to be how people do this. You can bodybuild without a gym. Indomitable willpower & a DIY ethic are…

Are we, arguably a bunch of antisocial nerds posting to an obscure extremely-online forum, really making theses about how hard socialization is for the average person? This is like a plumber talking about art history. We're out of our depth to a hilarious degree.

Finally someone with some semblance of self awareness.

Re: Leo Tolstoy on why people drink (2014)

#250

Post by medo-bear »

Hendrikto wrote: post #200
medo-bear wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think culture toward drinking is the determining factor. In my culture we are brought up around wine, heavy spirits, and beer. There is no such thing as comming of age by drinking yourself stupid as in UK, US or Australia for example. Intoxication is considered VERY bad form (embarassing). Usually when people feel they are becoming intoxicated they will excuse themselves and go home.

Which culture is that?

southern europe
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