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Leo Tolstoy on why people drink (2014)

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Re: Leo Tolstoy on why people drink (2014)

#171

Post by Cthulhu_ »

bambax wrote: post #137
Blahah wrote: post #9

Drinking slows down my brain and reduces the number of threads running in parallel. Sometimes very useful to enable normal-passing interaction in social environments. Or just to be able to focus. Lots of people with ADHD drink to achieve a more single threaded experience. Edit to add: I don't meant to encourage drinking as a tool for managing ADHD. It works but it's a blunt and dangerous tool. If you're at that point…

Drinking drowns creativity. I can do many many things almost properly while drunk, but one thing I can't do is write anything good. It's possible that's what we're after when we drink: stop the flow of ideas. That's one meaning of "stupefy".

And sometimes, that's just fine; you can't / shouldn't be "on" all the time. Give your brain / creativity a rest, let it relax. Be kind to yourself.

Re: Leo Tolstoy on why people drink (2014)

#172

Post by somethingreen »

The_Colonel wrote: post #163
ajuc wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Peasants in Russia (and in Poland-Lithuania before it got conquered) were effectively slaves. They had to do free work, couldn't leave without permission of the landlord. Landlords were also acting as judges. Landlords had monopoly on producing and selling alcohol, and they extracted as much additional income from that as they could. Which meant each of them had an inn which he rented out to someone. The inn was buyi…

What you're describing is serfdom, and it was in some aspects similar to slavery, but still distinct. Serfs could not be sold to another landlord, they had obligations towards the landlord, but were not a simple commodity. Serfdom was also widely present in Europe, not unique to Slavic countries at all.

> Serfs could not be sold to another landlord

They could in Russia. And when direct trade and trade with land were eventually prohibited, they were "rented out" to the same effect.

Re: Leo Tolstoy on why people drink (2014)

#173

Post by dalbasal »

jalapenos wrote: post #138
thenoblesunfish wrote: post #114

Let's consider this quote "All human life, we may say, consists solely of these two activities: (1) bringing one’s activities into harmony with conscience, or (2) hiding from oneself the indications of conscience in order to be able to continue to live as before." Note that he has defined all of life as two points about "one" and "oneself". This is why I and I assume many others roll their eyes. Because Tolstoy, and…

That's one big reason, but the other is numbing bad feelings, which I think is a more interesting field, especially since it often blurs into the social bit. Indeed, for the social aspect, everyone is already fully aware it's not needed, and that they can have fun socialization without it, because of their childhoods. I think the biggest reason alcohol is used is, to put it bluntly, how painful life is. As the child…

>Indeed, for the social aspect, everyone is already fully aware it's not needed, and that they can have fun socializations without it, because of their childhoods.

Sure... you can also learn everything a Stanford class teaches online. You can find alternatives for the networking aspects, etc. Still... universities tend to be how people do this. You can bodybuild without a gym. Indomitable willpower & a DIY ethic are admirable, but "hacks" are still the way 90% of people get the job done.

I think you are downplaying how hard it is to be social, in various contexts. Alcohol can be used to dull pain. This definitely does occur frequently, especially once substance abuse is the pattern.

This does not negate the earlier comment about lubricating social interactions. That's generally the starting point for alcohol use. Flirting in high school. Being socially adventurous in college. Getting intimate with coworkers.

Substance mediated mind alteration is not new. It's not just escapism or "opium for the masses." There are many real reasons people use mind altering substances. Escapism & "opium for the masses," is, however, usually the mode when/once we're talking about addiction.

If you look at why alcoholics drink, and why high schoolers drink.... the reasons are just different.

Re: Leo Tolstoy on why people drink (2014)

#174

Post by limaoscarjuliet »

danwee wrote: post #158
jalapenos wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's one big reason, but the other is numbing bad feelings, which I think is a more interesting field, especially since it often blurs into the social bit. Indeed, for the social aspect, everyone is already fully aware it's not needed, and that they can have fun socialization without it, because of their childhoods. I think the biggest reason alcohol is used is, to put it bluntly, how painful life is. As the child…

> But alcohol is a cheap, readily available blunt instrument against this pain. No matter how bad you feel, if you down a litre of booze, that pain will definitely, and quickly, stop. Never happened to me. I'm not a drinker but I have of course consumed alcohol. Life is as painful as usual with or without alcohol in my body. If any, life is more miserably with alcohol because I look more pathetic than usual (classic…

I'm with you - my body cannot process alcohol well, I'm hungover aftger couple of beers. As such I do not drink much, parties only, maybe once a year (if that).

It has always scared me what my life would be if I did tolerate alcohol well. Really, really scary thought!

Re: Leo Tolstoy on why people drink (2014)

#175

Post by probably_wrong »

shortcake27 wrote: post #94
hadlock wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because support costs for drug addicts have tremendous support costs for society. Prohibition was a genuine attempt at solving the problem once and for all, but for reasons that are clear now, didn't work.

That doesn’t make sense because safe, legal, educated, and controlled access to drugs reduces the burden on society. If someone’s priority is burden on society then they should be in favour of legalisation. So it seems the opposite is in effect. People are so vehemently against drugs that they are willing to accept a higher societal burden just to push their ideology.

> legal, educated, and controlled access to drugs reduces the burden on society.

I think it does make sense from an anti-drugs point of view. Imagine a parent whose child wants to take football as a sport. You have three choices:

1. "Sure, whatever, have fun". Cheap in the short run, but expensive in the long run due to medical bills and likelihood of traumatic head injury.

2. "Okay, but only with protective equipment". Cheaper in the long run, but still requires an investment in protective measures.

3. "No, too dangerous. Do something else". Even cheaper, no investment required.

Of course this is a simplification, but I think it illustrates the point: that society would rather have no drugs at all than investing in safe and controlled access.

Re: Leo Tolstoy on why people drink (2014)

#176

Post by andyjohnson0 »

Related talk at the Long Now: "Drinking for 10,000 Years: Intoxication and Civilization" [1]

Edward Slingerland’s latest research is a deep dive into the alcohol-soaked origins of civilization — and the evolutionary roots of humanity’s appetite for intoxication. “Drunk: How We Sipped, Danced and Stumbled Our Way to Civilization” elegantly cuts through the tangle of urban legends that surround our notions of intoxication to provide a rigorous, scientifically-grounded explanation for our love of alcohol. Drawing on evidence from archaeology, history, cognitive neuroscience, psychopharmacology, social psychology, literature, and genetics, Slingerland shows that our taste for chemical intoxicants is not an evolutionary mistake, as we are so often told. In fact, intoxication helps solve a number of distinctively human challenges: enhancing creativity, alleviating stress, building trust, and pulling off the miracle of getting fiercely tribal primates to cooperate with strangers.

[1] https://longnow.org/ideas/drinking-10000-years-intoxication-...

Re: Leo Tolstoy on why people drink (2014)

#177

Post by saiya-jin »

danwee wrote: post #158
jalapenos wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's one big reason, but the other is numbing bad feelings, which I think is a more interesting field, especially since it often blurs into the social bit. Indeed, for the social aspect, everyone is already fully aware it's not needed, and that they can have fun socialization without it, because of their childhoods. I think the biggest reason alcohol is used is, to put it bluntly, how painful life is. As the child…

> But alcohol is a cheap, readily available blunt instrument against this pain. No matter how bad you feel, if you down a litre of booze, that pain will definitely, and quickly, stop. Never happened to me. I'm not a drinker but I have of course consumed alcohol. Life is as painful as usual with or without alcohol in my body. If any, life is more miserably with alcohol because I look more pathetic than usual (classic…

You don't think like that when drunk, in fact very opposite of it. Those few hours are enough for some desperate enough to go for it repeatedly, with real risks of fucking up their lives permanently. Same for all other addictive drugs.

People are not rational, that's just a very thin layer on top of emotions dictating most of our lives. Some almost don't have them, some are more rational (me too). But its important to recognize these aspects of us, and be at peace with them, easier to work with them like that.

Re: Leo Tolstoy on why people drink (2014)

#178

Post by Al-Khwarizmi »

thenoblesunfish wrote: post #114

Let's consider this quote "All human life, we may say, consists solely of these two activities: (1) bringing one’s activities into harmony with conscience, or (2) hiding from oneself the indications of conscience in order to be able to continue to live as before." Note that he has defined all of life as two points about "one" and "oneself". This is why I and I assume many others roll their eyes. Because Tolstoy, and…

That's one important reason, but there's another one that is even more neglected: it just... tastes good (for those of us who like it, of course).

For example, as a 90 kg man, for me drinking a single 33cl bottle of beer has pretty much the same effect as drinking water, i.e., I don't feel anything at all (note that I don't drive, in that context it would probably still be relevant). So when I have a single beer with dinner, there is zero intention of socializing, stupefying myself or whatever. I just like the taste (and don't order alcohol-free beer, which is healthier, because I hate its taste).

Similarly, having a red wine with a strong sheep milk cheese is an amazing experience, just because the tastes combine so well and enhance each other.

If there were alcohol-free versions of the beverages that tasted the same, I'd probably use them most of the time (except in some social contexts). There is no such thing, though.

Re: Leo Tolstoy on why people drink (2014)

#179

Post by itvision »

1. Unfulfilled expectations dictated by the society around you - since we are herd animals, that runs deep below our consciousness and exhausts us. To deal with fatigue people start to look for ways to calm down this part of the brain, ergo substances.

2. Problems you cannot resolve and cannot stop thinking about. Again, closely related to the previous issue.

That's it. No need to write 25 long paragraphs about that.

Re: Leo Tolstoy on why people drink (2014)

#180

Post by bloqs »

giraffe_lady wrote: post #51
Blahah wrote: post #9

Drinking slows down my brain and reduces the number of threads running in parallel. Sometimes very useful to enable normal-passing interaction in social environments. Or just to be able to focus. Lots of people with ADHD drink to achieve a more single threaded experience. Edit to add: I don't meant to encourage drinking as a tool for managing ADHD. It works but it's a blunt and dangerous tool. If you're at that point…

Untreated or late diagnosed ADHD people are ridiculously overrepresented in drug & alcohol recovery programs. It's honestly chilling and it prevents me from taking this in the probably more lighthearted spirit that was intended.

Adhd is a particular personality configuration, mostly being high in Big Five trait Openness and low in Conscientiousness. High openness is correlated with impulsivity
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