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Leo Tolstoy on why people drink (2014)

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Re: Leo Tolstoy on why people drink (2014)

#151

Post by thyrsus »

bcatanzaro wrote: post #54

I find the description of alcohol as something that "stupefies" rather reductive. People are often louder, more expressive and more interesting when they've had a drink. The opposite of catatonic. Now it's true that overdosing on alcohol is poisonous but most people don't drink to the point of stupification regularly. I am interested in why Tolstoy feels the need to be so reductive. Sounds to me like he might also be…

Tolstoy argues that it is the conscience in particular that is stupefied; he may also have been influenced by behavior he observed. I have anecdotal experience of Russians drinking themselves beyond garrulity into stupor, although I'm certain it can happen in any culture where alcohol is available.

Re: Leo Tolstoy on why people drink (2014)

#152

Post by jiggywiggy »

jalapenos wrote: post #138
thenoblesunfish wrote: post #114

Let's consider this quote "All human life, we may say, consists solely of these two activities: (1) bringing one’s activities into harmony with conscience, or (2) hiding from oneself the indications of conscience in order to be able to continue to live as before." Note that he has defined all of life as two points about "one" and "oneself". This is why I and I assume many others roll their eyes. Because Tolstoy, and…

That's one big reason, but the other is numbing bad feelings, which I think is a more interesting field, especially since it often blurs into the social bit. Indeed, for the social aspect, everyone is already fully aware it's not needed, and that they can have fun socialization without it, because of their childhoods. I think the biggest reason alcohol is used is, to put it bluntly, how painful life is. As the child…

Live isnt very painful for me.

Still enjoy a beer a bit too much. When I'm super happy and then have a beer it just adds to it.

It also can help me relax if I'm working to much. One can argue it's not needed, but at times nice.

Re: Leo Tolstoy on why people drink (2014)

#153

Post by throwaway2037 »

newprint wrote: post #46
ldjkfkdsjnv wrote: post #5

Call me crazy, but as a highly analytical person that has spent 70% of my waking hours in the last five years working on something technical, my social skills are best when I'm hungover. The logical analytical side of me is diminished and I am much more "normal". I have a much higher rate of success on dates with women when I have a really bad hang over and then a few drinks. It does feel like a lobotomy, and that's…

I had zero social circle and no significant other in my life, until I started drinking. World opened up for me after I started consuming alcohol. Edit: However, you need to be responsible. Alcohol badly derailed my life once.

    no significant other in my life, until I started drinking
I have heard this from other men. I don't know what to make of it. Please do not read that as me judging you. Thank you to share. That is a tough thing to "say out loud" (on the InnerWebs).

My best friend from uni did not start drinking until his 30s. He never had a girlfriend before he drank. Something bothers me so much when I think about it. He is married now and a very decent husband -- really cares about his wife. What if he never started drinking and never met anyone? Sheesh.

Assuming hetero-normative for a moment, what do women think about this?

Re: Leo Tolstoy on why people drink (2014)

#154

Post by ordu »

bcatanzaro wrote: post #54

I find the description of alcohol as something that "stupefies" rather reductive. People are often louder, more expressive and more interesting when they've had a drink. The opposite of catatonic. Now it's true that overdosing on alcohol is poisonous but most people don't drink to the point of stupification regularly. I am interested in why Tolstoy feels the need to be so reductive. Sounds to me like he might also be…

> Sounds to me like he might also be "hiding from himself what he doesn't wish to see".

He tells exactly this. You and him are looking from different sets of axioms, so you come to a different language, but it is just outside appearance.

Tolstoy uses axioms like Freud's: human is an animal inside and human needs to work hard to subside his/her animal nature and to become a Human. So human is inherently bad, but it may become good if tried hard enough.

From other hand you start from different premises (I allow myself a little guessing here, sorry): human is inherently good, but may become bad due to bad experiences. So if one feels the need to become good, they need to dig inside themselves, find out what happens, accept it, and learn how to live with it. Humanistic psychology like that.

But the funny thing, that it doesn't matter much where you begin to think what it means to be a human, the most complicating thing is a communication between people using different sets of axioms about human nature.

Re: Leo Tolstoy on why people drink (2014)

#155

Post by joedeandev »

bambax wrote: post #135

> How is it that where there is no vodka, wine or beer, we find opium, hashish, fly-agaric, and the like, and that tobacco is used everywhere? Was "tobacco" at the time different from what it's now? I have been a smoker for years (stopped a long time ago) and in my experience, as well as others', tobacco does not stupefy, at all. Is it possible that what Tolstoy called "tobacco" involved other substances as well?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicotine#Central_nervous_syste... >

> Nicotine is unusual in comparison to most drugs, as its profile changes from stimulant to sedative with increasing dosages, a phenomenon known as "Nesbitt's paradox" after the doctor who first described it in 1969.

Re: Leo Tolstoy on why people drink (2014)

#156

Post by throwaway2037 »

circuit8 wrote: post #64
belfalas wrote: post #18

"When a man is sober he is ashamed of what seems all right when he is drunk. In these words we have the essential underlying cause prompting men to resort to stupefiers. People resort to them either to escape feeling ashamed after having done something contrary to their consciences, or to bring themselves beforehand into a state in which they can commit actions contrary to conscience, but to which their animal nature…

This is the core of the issue. The thing is that in modern western societies shame is placed upon many activities that are normal and necessary for a human to enjoy a good life. It is shameful in many places for a person to sing, dance, and to express their true emotions. So we intoxicate ourselves, in order to escape from the overly rigid social conditioning we have all internalised.

    modern western societies shame is placed upon many activities that are normal and necessary for a human to enjoy a good life
Where are my Italians at? They don't do this. Probably Spaniards and Greeks also, but I have met far fewer.

Re: Leo Tolstoy on why people drink (2014)

#157

Post by soco »

runeks wrote: post #143
sibeliuss wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was as social as one could be while drunk and am as solitary as a hermit now that I'm sober. I miss the social life at times, but really, as Tolstoy remarks, it was just an escape from my true nature which I hadn't yet figured out. And what a mess that was. So yes, its a social thing, but is it good? It's something. There are other ways.

> I was as social as one could be while drunk and am as solitary as a hermit now that I'm sober. Being drunk and consuming alcohol is not the same thing. I like to drink a couple of beers but not more than that.

I feel this is the same discussion as with veganism - anything that's not 100% pure it's getting called drunkard and berated for that. Meh.

Re: Leo Tolstoy on why people drink (2014)

#158

Post by danwee »

jalapenos wrote: post #138
thenoblesunfish wrote: post #114

Let's consider this quote "All human life, we may say, consists solely of these two activities: (1) bringing one’s activities into harmony with conscience, or (2) hiding from oneself the indications of conscience in order to be able to continue to live as before." Note that he has defined all of life as two points about "one" and "oneself". This is why I and I assume many others roll their eyes. Because Tolstoy, and…

That's one big reason, but the other is numbing bad feelings, which I think is a more interesting field, especially since it often blurs into the social bit. Indeed, for the social aspect, everyone is already fully aware it's not needed, and that they can have fun socialization without it, because of their childhoods. I think the biggest reason alcohol is used is, to put it bluntly, how painful life is. As the child…

> But alcohol is a cheap, readily available blunt instrument against this pain. No matter how bad you feel, if you down a litre of booze, that pain will definitely, and quickly, stop.

Never happened to me. I'm not a drinker but I have of course consumed alcohol. Life is as painful as usual with or without alcohol in my body. If any, life is more miserably with alcohol because I look more pathetic than usual (classic drunk face), my voice is not clear, my mouth smells like shit, and I walk funny (if I can walk at all).

Not sure about other drugs, though (never tried).

Re: Leo Tolstoy on why people drink (2014)

#159

Post by The_Colonel »

thenoblesunfish wrote: post #114

Let's consider this quote "All human life, we may say, consists solely of these two activities: (1) bringing one’s activities into harmony with conscience, or (2) hiding from oneself the indications of conscience in order to be able to continue to live as before." Note that he has defined all of life as two points about "one" and "oneself". This is why I and I assume many others roll their eyes. Because Tolstoy, and…

I believe the main reason people drink is for its euphoric, anxiolytic and relaxing effects.

These are desirable on their own, but they are also very useful specifically for socializing.

Re: Leo Tolstoy on why people drink (2014)

#160

Post by jibbit »

stiglitz wrote: post #115
thenoblesunfish wrote: post #114

Let's consider this quote "All human life, we may say, consists solely of these two activities: (1) bringing one’s activities into harmony with conscience, or (2) hiding from oneself the indications of conscience in order to be able to continue to live as before." Note that he has defined all of life as two points about "one" and "oneself". This is why I and I assume many others roll their eyes. Because Tolstoy, and…

I enjoy drinking alone.

I think of it more as ‘quieting’ the mind - the internal monologue - this does help with socialising, and numbing bad feelings, but it’s still useful when neither of those things are relevant I.e. winding down after a full-on day. I socialise (and have bad thoughts) in the mornings too, but I dont want a drink then
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