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Tesla Fleet Telemetry

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Re: Tesla Fleet Telemetry

#101

Post by simondotau »

autoexec wrote: post #100
toomuchtodo wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To answer your questions (I could not tell if they were rhetorical or not), worst case outcome is that someone either legitimately or illegitimately has the history of my vehicles’ locations and commands issued to the vehicles. As mentioned, in my grandparent comment, within my risk appetite. It could happen, but I don’t care enough to worry about it. > It's reasonable then to do our best to avoid products and servic…

> worst case outcome is that someone either legitimately or illegitimately has the history of my vehicles’ locations and commands issued to the vehicles. That is hardly the worst case outcome. The worst case outcomes would be those where that data is used against you because it was sold/leaked/subpoenaed. There's no end to the ways it could be used against you either. Maybe a future potential employer doesn't like ho…

> Maybe a future potential employer doesn't like how often you visit bars, or what church you attend, and you are passed over for a job you want.

Take this as my opinion only, and I appreciate that some people don't have the luxury of this opinion, but for me there is zero Venn diagram overlap between jobs I want and employers who are as creepily obsessed with my private life as that.

> Maybe that data is used by advertisers to more effectively manipulate you into parting with more of your money.

If you want to frame advertising as manipulation, then I suppose so. Personally I don't see it that way. If I see an advertisement for something I want and I end up buying it, that isn't any more manipulative than seeing a particularly attractive banana in the supermarket and buying it.

Advertisements are a way for people who make things or do things to find people who want those things. Successful advertising isn't a bad thing so long as it isn't dishonest. I think if there's a 1% chance that I'm more likely to become aware of a product that actually interests me, I see that as a win for me. I have finite money and I'd rather spend it on things I want more than things I want less.

> I hope that you never suffer a consequence

I'll happily wear that risk. I greatly prefer it to the alternative, which is the guaranteed suffering which results from being obsessively paranoid.

Re: Tesla Fleet Telemetry

#102

Post by autoexec »

simondotau wrote: post #101
autoexec wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> worst case outcome is that someone either legitimately or illegitimately has the history of my vehicles’ locations and commands issued to the vehicles. That is hardly the worst case outcome. The worst case outcomes would be those where that data is used against you because it was sold/leaked/subpoenaed. There's no end to the ways it could be used against you either. Maybe a future potential employer doesn't like ho…

> Maybe a future potential employer doesn't like how often you visit bars, or what church you attend, and you are passed over for a job you want. Take this as my opinion only, and I appreciate that some people don't have the luxury of this opinion, but for me there is zero Venn diagram overlap between jobs I want and employers who are as creepily obsessed with my private life as that. > Maybe that data is used by adv…

> there is zero Venn diagram overlap between jobs I want and employers who are as creepily obsessed with my private life as that.

I feel the same way, but employers aren't going to tell you they're digging into your personal life or why you were turned down for the job. You just get ghosted. The problem isn't limited to employers either. It could be a landlord, or a bank. Part of the problem is that you aren't allowed to know when it's happening which makes it hard to avoid.

> If you want to frame advertising as manipulation, then I suppose so. Personally I don't see it that way.

Ads can be informative, but when was last time you saw an ad that wasn't in some way manipulative? If you can't even see that it's happening, you're likely more susceptible to the effects, but even you know it's happening you're still influenced by manipulation. We all are. Ads are carefully designed to exploit flaws in our brains. Ad companies have spent massive amounts of money and research to maximize the effects, even experimenting on children to learn things like how early a child can recognize a brand.

> I'll happily wear that risk. I greatly prefer it to the alternative, which is the guaranteed suffering which results from being obsessively paranoid.

You know what the say, it's not paranoia if they're really out to get you. The examples I gave of the harms that can result from abuse of your personal data are based on things that have already happened. People might be happier if they are blissfully ignorant or can convince themselves to ignore what's going on, but I feel better if I take some simple steps to avoid potential harms and stay aware of what's happening in the world. It's pretty easy to just not buy a car that collects your location 24/7 and even easier to avoid giving that data to unnecessary apps.

Re: Tesla Fleet Telemetry

#103

Post by simondotau »

seanieb wrote: post #31

That’s great and all, but I’d settle for my Model 3 Autopilot staying in its lane and not trying to slam me into the median.

I've used many brands of adaptive cruise control with lane centering and none of them are absolutely trustworthy. I don't see why anyone would expect Tesla's adaptive cruise control with lane centering to be any different. Especially considering they called it "autopilot", a term which can refer to the performing of rote tasks without self-awareness.[0]

[0] https://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/american/on-a...

Re: Tesla Fleet Telemetry

#104

Post by simondotau »

autoexec wrote: post #102
simondotau wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Maybe a future potential employer doesn't like how often you visit bars, or what church you attend, and you are passed over for a job you want. Take this as my opinion only, and I appreciate that some people don't have the luxury of this opinion, but for me there is zero Venn diagram overlap between jobs I want and employers who are as creepily obsessed with my private life as that. > Maybe that data is used by adv…

> there is zero Venn diagram overlap between jobs I want and employers who are as creepily obsessed with my private life as that. I feel the same way, but employers aren't going to tell you they're digging into your personal life or why you were turned down for the job. You just get ghosted. The problem isn't limited to employers either. It could be a landlord, or a bank. Part of the problem is that you aren't allowe…

> but employers aren't going to tell you they're digging into your personal life or why you were turned down for the job.

So I don't learn why I didn't get a job I definitely wouldn't want. Perhaps not the ideal outcome, but not far from it. I really don't understand what the problem is here.

Would I prefer if I accidentally ended up working for an awful person because I never gave them a chance to reveal their awfulness? Absolutely not. I don't want to work for an awful person even if they never get a chance to be awful to me personally.

> even [if] you know it's happening you're still influenced by manipulation

I reject your framing but to the extent there's any truth to it, I'm going to be manipulated by ads no matter what. Given that, I'd rather be manipulated by ads that are better targeted to me. This is an important point — manipulation is mostly orthogonal to targeting. Especially since hyper-targeting quickly becomes overtly creepy and loses its manipulativeness.

Considered holistically, there's no downside for me being targeted rather than broadcasted. In fact if targeting means that a company's customer acquisition costs are lower, there's a non-zero chance it could result in me paying a lower price for something I would have bought anyway.

Re: Tesla Fleet Telemetry

#105

Post by VectorLock »

bonestamp2 wrote: post #17

I wonder if they started building this API to comply with the newer Massachusetts right to repair law, then just made it public when the feds told automakers to ignore the Massachusetts law.

That was the first thing I thought of when I saw this post and read the code a bit.

Also fuck the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration for telling auto makers to ignore a very well intentioned state law.

Re: Tesla Fleet Telemetry

#106

Post by VectorLock »

simondotau wrote: post #103
seanieb wrote: post #31

That’s great and all, but I’d settle for my Model 3 Autopilot staying in its lane and not trying to slam me into the median.

I've used many brands of adaptive cruise control with lane centering and none of them are absolutely trustworthy. I don't see why anyone would expect Tesla's adaptive cruise control with lane centering to be any different. Especially considering they called it "autopilot", a term which can refer to the performing of rote tasks without self-awareness.[0] [0] https://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/american/on-a…

Which brands did you try and how much did you try them?

Re: Tesla Fleet Telemetry

#107

Post by hef19898 »

sandworm101 wrote: post #78
toomuchtodo wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not ignorant of your concerns, but that’s what privacy laws are for. These third parties have been scrapping Tesla APIs at the behest of their customers for years. This is nothing new, simply more formalized. If the laws are insufficient, that’s a call for better laws (which I agree are needed). The apps I use do not sell their customer data, but Tesla should probably stipulate API integrations aren’t permitted t…

Or forget the laws. I will buy a car that doesn't stream data. My current vehicle doesn't and I have never felt the need. My next one wont either ... not if I have anything to say about it.

The question is, why does a car have to at all? And no, the closest we are is a car that could share data with the OEM, if you wanted, and we don't. As long as possible, I'd pass hard on cars where you don't have that choice.

Re: Tesla Fleet Telemetry

#108

Post by autoexec »

simondotau wrote: post #104
autoexec wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there is zero Venn diagram overlap between jobs I want and employers who are as creepily obsessed with my private life as that. I feel the same way, but employers aren't going to tell you they're digging into your personal life or why you were turned down for the job. You just get ghosted. The problem isn't limited to employers either. It could be a landlord, or a bank. Part of the problem is that you aren't allowe…

> but employers aren't going to tell you they're digging into your personal life or why you were turned down for the job. So I don't learn why I didn't get a job I definitely wouldn't want. Perhaps not the ideal outcome, but not far from it. I really don't understand what the problem is here. Would I prefer if I accidentally ended up working for an awful person because I never gave them a chance to reveal their awful…

> So I don't learn why I didn't get a job I definitely wouldn't want. Perhaps not the ideal outcome, but not far from it.

Would you say the same about the house you wanted to buy/rent or the loan you needed? It just makes it easier to hide discrimination that would otherwise be illegal. At least the bigoted HR person in charge of screening applicants is probably not someone you'd interact with once hired.

> I'd rather be manipulated by ads that are better targeted to me.

I doubt I can change your preference for targeting advertising, but I will offer you a few perspectives on the subject you might not have considered:

It was manipulation through ad targeting that made that whole Cambridge Analytica situation such a problem.

Targeted ads artificially limit what new products and services you get exposed to only those things companies "think" you want, or what advertisers want you to buy, or whatever will make them more money vs things you might really be into or prefer if you'd had the opportunity to hear about them. It allows them to shape culture and segregate populations. This is a similar problem to the "filter bubble" found in search engines.

knowing that we're vulnerable to advertising, I'd much rather be tricked into forming an irrational association linking happiness, or acceptance, or well-being and a product that I know I'll never or rarely buy than have that kind of trickery influence my choice between two products of a category I buy often.

Re: Tesla Fleet Telemetry

#109

Post by Corrado »

FormerBandmate wrote: post #81
sandworm101 wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And if your local police department wants to buy that data? What if a large law firm wants to buy all the data for use in lawsuits? Once you have pass it on to "third parties" then there isn't much you can do to stop such things. It happened a few decades ago as in-car GPS rolled out. Some rental car companies started issuing speeding tickets. That game lasted about a week. >> Feb. 2002. A Connecticut man has taken a…

No one is forcing anyone to use a data logging app for their Tesla. It’s not only purely opt in, you usually have to buy them

Correct! There are several apps that I've wanted to use over the years but the main blocker (for me) has been authorization. With this new feature from Tesla that all changes. I'm much more willing to purchase these apps now that I can limit their reach.

The real bonus is that it appears as if this update will help isolate the app from the vehicle. What I mean is that the current way these apps work is they poll the vehicle for data. This is bad because it (potentially) wakes up with vehicle and increases battery consumption. The way I understand it, this new method will allow apps to "poll" Tesla instead, which is a much better operation.

Re: Tesla Fleet Telemetry

#110

Post by [deleted] »

sandworm101 wrote: post #78
toomuchtodo wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not ignorant of your concerns, but that’s what privacy laws are for. These third parties have been scrapping Tesla APIs at the behest of their customers for years. This is nothing new, simply more formalized. If the laws are insufficient, that’s a call for better laws (which I agree are needed). The apps I use do not sell their customer data, but Tesla should probably stipulate API integrations aren’t permitted t…

Or forget the laws. I will buy a car that doesn't stream data. My current vehicle doesn't and I have never felt the need. My next one wont either ... not if I have anything to say about it.

[deleted]
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