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Supreme Court strikes down affirmative action in college admissions

latimes.com

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Re: Supreme Court strikes down affirmative action in college admissions

#401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If affirmative action is what enabled your father to become a doctor, then it almost certainly sounds like the success story that motivates the action. I don’t know percent of the time a similar story is required to justify the means, but it sounds like you should embrace the path that your family’s life has taken. The alternative, presumably, would be effectively unfair knowing what could and then did become.

It's worth bearing in mind that if affirmative action helped his father become a doctor, it also prevented someone else's father from becoming a doctor. I wonder what that person could have achieved.

in addition to this, in this scenario, it’s worth bearing in mind that they both should have achieved their dreams.

Re: Supreme Court strikes down affirmative action in college admissions

#402
post #69
post #28

I would like to see lotteries used for this type of thing, because they would be much easier to accept. You could have 10% or 20% percent of candidates chosen by lottery, or have a lottery for all candidates who have the minimum pre-requisites, etc. Some sort of randomness whould guarantee a diversity of candidates and would even span across dimensions which are not even considered currently.

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> just to join a lottery

I don't think he means a purely random lottery (at least I hope he doesn't). My son was a high achiever (valedictorian, top 1% SAT, honor society, etc. etc.) but still didn't get admitted to MIT because he was competing with 30,000 other similar high achievers for 1000 spots. That's where the lottery concept comes in - you have to compete to qualify for the lottery. It's already in place after all, they just try to make it less lottery-ish.

Re: Supreme Court strikes down affirmative action in college admissions

#404

I often wished universities (and other organizations) would use a scoresheet-like "matrix of oppression" to determine someone's background difficulties. Like okay, you get X points if you're this race, Y points for that. Z points if your parents were poor. Or if you grew up in these bad zip codes. Or if your dad was gone and mom was an addict. Whatever. As an Asian American of relatively privileged (middle class) upb…

This idea of a "matrix" often occurs to me when such topics are discussed. What attributes would you add to the matrix? You've suggested race, family wealth, zip code, whether a parent was an addict. You could also have height, physical beauty, IQ, degree of disability, sporting aptitude. Perhaps even degree of neuroticism or autism. The problem is, the matrix quickly gets bigger and bigger. The number of unique matr…

I think there are two questions here, both of which are totally valid, difficult, and important.

One, how do you quantify "oppression" or "deservedness". My honest answer to that is I don't know. I wonder if a statistical model of demographics vs lifetime earnings can help, at a first estimation, by it wouldn't be simple at all and would probably be even more controversial than gerrymandering.

But the other side of the question: the "why" should we do this at all, I think there is a clearer answer for that. Because if we don't, power and wealth quickly entrenches and polarizes society. Those with existing privileges share them with their offspring, and in so doing create dynasties of power that are counterproductive to the dream of an equitable democracy (which isn't a dream everyone shares). Those dynasties can arise from race, but also class, family name, legacy admissions, etc. People aren't just blank slate individuals but also very much the product of their environments. I think the goal isn't to wash away individual performance but to give people the chance to actually discover, express, and utilize their individual ability despite handicaps of circumstance -- at its core, the basic idea is that there are people who are richly deserving of aid and recognition because they could be great, "if only" something. It's the "if only what" that isn't easy to agree on.

We don't want to exclude someone just because they had poor parents. Or because they're neurodivergent. Or white. In an ideal society there would just be ample opportunities for everyone. We don't live in such a society, so as long as there are limited resources and opportunities, we have to either fight over them or try to share them. I prefer the sharing model, but not everyone does.

Re: Supreme Court strikes down affirmative action in college admissions

#405
post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, every time the discussion comes up about, for example, reparations for the descendants of slaves, I start out thinking: it's been 150 years! Some of those descendants are very successful now and some descendants of slave owners are probably very poor now. And some people are descendants of both. And then I learn about the Jim Crow period, and then you hear that even the GI bill explicitly excluded black people,…

> ... when black people call the police, there's the non-zero chance that they're the ones who end up getting shot. In the US, isn't that the case regardless of people's skin colour? This example springs to mind for me anyway: https://www.news.com.au/world/north-america/verdict-in-polic...

Statistics matter, anecdotes do not.

Re: Supreme Court strikes down affirmative action in college admissions

#406

Earlier quoted context omitted.

America has long had most of the best universities in the world. Getting rid of all standardized tests and instead relying on (heavily inflated, or not) grades, combined with bullshit essays, is going to significantly undermine that.

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In terms of research, it's been roughly true since WWII. Persecution by the Nazis and the war drove the cream of the European scientific establishment to the US, and the US poured a large amount of government funding into science funding after the war. Things are changing, first because the European scientific community has recovered and also because scientific research has been taking off in Asia.

Re: Supreme Court strikes down affirmative action in college admissions

#407

Considering the failure and timing of prop 16 and overall makeup of the California electorate compared to rest of country, official discrimination on the basis of race likely won't return in higher ed. Also consider that prop 16 failed by double digits with the pro-discrimination crowd outspending the opposition 19x What I'm curious about is this: the Harvard decision is wrt a private entity, the court ruled that the…

The decision affects private entities that accept some form of federal financial assistance (this is language from Title VI of the 1964 Civil Rights Act), not private entities writ large. Granted, that is still a big bucket.

There's apparently a bit of overlap between Title VI and Title VII. But will likely have a separate case

> “many of the thought processes and the basic legal principles” are the same, says Daniel Pyne III, an employment specialist at law firm Hopkins & Carley. If the court strikes down race-conscious admissions in education, “that is a strong hint that the same decision might be made” in employment cases

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/newsletters/2023-06-22/suprem...

Re: Supreme Court strikes down affirmative action in college admissions

#408
post #222

The concept of affirmative action is foreign to me (quite literally so). I only know it from American media, and I've come understand it to mean "positively discriminate based on race, so long as it's a minority race" - please correct me of I'm wrong. But anyway, my question for the Americans here who grok this stuff: I assume the intent is to help disadvantaged people have opportunities that more priviledged people…

> I assume the intent is to help disadvantaged people have opportunities that more priviledged people have already. Right? I mean, I can get behind that. But then why the entire detour with race? Up until about 1971 (possibly later, but that's the date of Loving vs Virginia ), the US had formal, legal discrimination against black people. On finally removing that, there was at various times discussion of whether peopl…

> Harvard, and many other colleges, has a big base of "legacy" admissions, […] Since black people were under-represented in this category, people came up with the idea of putting a thumb on the other side of the scale and artificially increasing their rate of admission.

This is a nice story, but actually not true.

If it were true, Harvard etc wouldn’t also discriminate against Asians. Maybe they weren’t as oppressed as blacks in the US, but they should thus get at least equivalent treatment as whites and hispanics, not worse.

Re: Supreme Court strikes down affirmative action in college admissions

#409

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If affirmative action is what enabled your father to become a doctor, then it almost certainly sounds like the success story that motivates the action. I don’t know percent of the time a similar story is required to justify the means, but it sounds like you should embrace the path that your family’s life has taken. The alternative, presumably, would be effectively unfair knowing what could and then did become.

Do we need race based affirmative action though? Couldn't we have needs based discrimination? What makes a poor hispanic immigrant more deserving of a hand up than a poor ukranian immigrant?

I would say both are in need, personally, but affirmative action is looking at the reality that society will discriminate more against the Hispanic immigrant… so everything on the way to education and afterwords will reduce the chances of upward mobility and the self-confidence to withstand such discrimination compared to someone who is the dominant perceived race.

Re: Supreme Court strikes down affirmative action in college admissions

#410

The concept of affirmative action is foreign to me (quite literally so). I only know it from American media, and I've come understand it to mean "positively discriminate based on race, so long as it's a minority race" - please correct me of I'm wrong. But anyway, my question for the Americans here who grok this stuff: I assume the intent is to help disadvantaged people have opportunities that more priviledged people…

There was a logic to the idea of racial preferences as originally envisioned. Studies show that the income gaps between American descendants of slaves and indigenous Americans basically have been unchanged even after segregation and legal discrimination was ended. The reasoning goes that racial preferences are necessary to undo these disadvantages.

But the actual practice in US universities has become completely disconnected from that logic. For example, the largest group eligible for racial preferences is Hispanics. But Hispanics enjoy similar income mobility to whites and previous generations of white immigrants: https://economics.princeton.edu/working-papers/intergenerati.... Insofar as they are poorer than whites as a group, that’s a transient condition due to recency and circumstances of immigration, just as it was for say Italians or Vietnamese.

A child of a poor Guatemalan immigrant statistically will end up better off than the child of a poor Appalachian whose family has been in the US for centuries. It makes no sense to put a thumb on the scale in favor of the Guatemalan under the original justification for racial preferences.

Moreover, most black students admitted to say Harvard are not American descendants of slaves: https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2020/10/15/gaasa-scrut/. Some are immigrants from the Caribbean and Latin America, who also are descendants of slaves. But many (up to half) are immigrants from Africa. Not only are they not descendants of slaves, they are typically elites in their home countries.

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