Earlier quoted context omitted.
If affirmative action is what enabled your father to become a doctor, then it almost certainly sounds like the success story that motivates the action. I don’t know percent of the time a similar story is required to justify the means, but it sounds like you should embrace the path that your family’s life has taken. The alternative, presumably, would be effectively unfair knowing what could and then did become.
It's worth bearing in mind that if affirmative action helped his father become a doctor, it also prevented someone else's father from becoming a doctor. I wonder what that person could have achieved.
Supreme Court strikes down affirmative action in college admissions
401–410 of 1001 posts
Re: Supreme Court strikes down affirmative action in college admissions
#402I would like to see lotteries used for this type of thing, because they would be much easier to accept. You could have 10% or 20% percent of candidates chosen by lottery, or have a lottery for all candidates who have the minimum pre-requisites, etc. Some sort of randomness whould guarantee a diversity of candidates and would even span across dimensions which are not even considered currently.
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I don't think he means a purely random lottery (at least I hope he doesn't). My son was a high achiever (valedictorian, top 1% SAT, honor society, etc. etc.) but still didn't get admitted to MIT because he was competing with 30,000 other similar high achievers for 1000 spots. That's where the lottery concept comes in - you have to compete to qualify for the lottery. It's already in place after all, they just try to make it less lottery-ish.
Re: Supreme Court strikes down affirmative action in college admissions
#403Re: Supreme Court strikes down affirmative action in college admissions
#404I often wished universities (and other organizations) would use a scoresheet-like "matrix of oppression" to determine someone's background difficulties. Like okay, you get X points if you're this race, Y points for that. Z points if your parents were poor. Or if you grew up in these bad zip codes. Or if your dad was gone and mom was an addict. Whatever. As an Asian American of relatively privileged (middle class) upb…
This idea of a "matrix" often occurs to me when such topics are discussed. What attributes would you add to the matrix? You've suggested race, family wealth, zip code, whether a parent was an addict. You could also have height, physical beauty, IQ, degree of disability, sporting aptitude. Perhaps even degree of neuroticism or autism. The problem is, the matrix quickly gets bigger and bigger. The number of unique matr…
One, how do you quantify "oppression" or "deservedness". My honest answer to that is I don't know. I wonder if a statistical model of demographics vs lifetime earnings can help, at a first estimation, by it wouldn't be simple at all and would probably be even more controversial than gerrymandering.
But the other side of the question: the "why" should we do this at all, I think there is a clearer answer for that. Because if we don't, power and wealth quickly entrenches and polarizes society. Those with existing privileges share them with their offspring, and in so doing create dynasties of power that are counterproductive to the dream of an equitable democracy (which isn't a dream everyone shares). Those dynasties can arise from race, but also class, family name, legacy admissions, etc. People aren't just blank slate individuals but also very much the product of their environments. I think the goal isn't to wash away individual performance but to give people the chance to actually discover, express, and utilize their individual ability despite handicaps of circumstance -- at its core, the basic idea is that there are people who are richly deserving of aid and recognition because they could be great, "if only" something. It's the "if only what" that isn't easy to agree on.
We don't want to exclude someone just because they had poor parents. Or because they're neurodivergent. Or white. In an ideal society there would just be ample opportunities for everyone. We don't live in such a society, so as long as there are limited resources and opportunities, we have to either fight over them or try to share them. I prefer the sharing model, but not everyone does.
Re: Supreme Court strikes down affirmative action in college admissions
#405Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yeah, every time the discussion comes up about, for example, reparations for the descendants of slaves, I start out thinking: it's been 150 years! Some of those descendants are very successful now and some descendants of slave owners are probably very poor now. And some people are descendants of both. And then I learn about the Jim Crow period, and then you hear that even the GI bill explicitly excluded black people,…
> ... when black people call the police, there's the non-zero chance that they're the ones who end up getting shot. In the US, isn't that the case regardless of people's skin colour? This example springs to mind for me anyway: https://www.news.com.au/world/north-america/verdict-in-polic...
Re: Supreme Court strikes down affirmative action in college admissions
#406Earlier quoted context omitted.
America has long had most of the best universities in the world. Getting rid of all standardized tests and instead relying on (heavily inflated, or not) grades, combined with bullshit essays, is going to significantly undermine that.
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Re: Supreme Court strikes down affirmative action in college admissions
#407Considering the failure and timing of prop 16 and overall makeup of the California electorate compared to rest of country, official discrimination on the basis of race likely won't return in higher ed. Also consider that prop 16 failed by double digits with the pro-discrimination crowd outspending the opposition 19x What I'm curious about is this: the Harvard decision is wrt a private entity, the court ruled that the…
The decision affects private entities that accept some form of federal financial assistance (this is language from Title VI of the 1964 Civil Rights Act), not private entities writ large. Granted, that is still a big bucket.
> “many of the thought processes and the basic legal principles” are the same, says Daniel Pyne III, an employment specialist at law firm Hopkins & Carley. If the court strikes down race-conscious admissions in education, “that is a strong hint that the same decision might be made” in employment cases
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/newsletters/2023-06-22/suprem...
Re: Supreme Court strikes down affirmative action in college admissions
#408The concept of affirmative action is foreign to me (quite literally so). I only know it from American media, and I've come understand it to mean "positively discriminate based on race, so long as it's a minority race" - please correct me of I'm wrong. But anyway, my question for the Americans here who grok this stuff: I assume the intent is to help disadvantaged people have opportunities that more priviledged people…
> I assume the intent is to help disadvantaged people have opportunities that more priviledged people have already. Right? I mean, I can get behind that. But then why the entire detour with race? Up until about 1971 (possibly later, but that's the date of Loving vs Virginia ), the US had formal, legal discrimination against black people. On finally removing that, there was at various times discussion of whether peopl…
This is a nice story, but actually not true.
If it were true, Harvard etc wouldn’t also discriminate against Asians. Maybe they weren’t as oppressed as blacks in the US, but they should thus get at least equivalent treatment as whites and hispanics, not worse.
Re: Supreme Court strikes down affirmative action in college admissions
#409Earlier quoted context omitted.
If affirmative action is what enabled your father to become a doctor, then it almost certainly sounds like the success story that motivates the action. I don’t know percent of the time a similar story is required to justify the means, but it sounds like you should embrace the path that your family’s life has taken. The alternative, presumably, would be effectively unfair knowing what could and then did become.
Do we need race based affirmative action though? Couldn't we have needs based discrimination? What makes a poor hispanic immigrant more deserving of a hand up than a poor ukranian immigrant?
Re: Supreme Court strikes down affirmative action in college admissions
#410The concept of affirmative action is foreign to me (quite literally so). I only know it from American media, and I've come understand it to mean "positively discriminate based on race, so long as it's a minority race" - please correct me of I'm wrong. But anyway, my question for the Americans here who grok this stuff: I assume the intent is to help disadvantaged people have opportunities that more priviledged people…
But the actual practice in US universities has become completely disconnected from that logic. For example, the largest group eligible for racial preferences is Hispanics. But Hispanics enjoy similar income mobility to whites and previous generations of white immigrants: https://economics.princeton.edu/working-papers/intergenerati.... Insofar as they are poorer than whites as a group, that’s a transient condition due to recency and circumstances of immigration, just as it was for say Italians or Vietnamese.
A child of a poor Guatemalan immigrant statistically will end up better off than the child of a poor Appalachian whose family has been in the US for centuries. It makes no sense to put a thumb on the scale in favor of the Guatemalan under the original justification for racial preferences.
Moreover, most black students admitted to say Harvard are not American descendants of slaves: https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2020/10/15/gaasa-scrut/. Some are immigrants from the Caribbean and Latin America, who also are descendants of slaves. But many (up to half) are immigrants from Africa. Not only are they not descendants of slaves, they are typically elites in their home countries.