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Plastics are poisoning us

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Re: Plastics are poisoning us

#411

Post by alwa »

semi-extrinsic wrote: post #306
droopyEyelids wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What plasticizers, chain extenders, flame retardants, fillers, stabilizers, colorants, reinforcements, blowing agents, antistatic agents, and lubricants are used with PLA? I'm not asking to play 'gotcha' with your comment, but because when I've attempted to do my own research on this, I find it easy to get information on the polymer itself, but the polymer is never used by itself in a product. As far as I can tell, m…

Oh this is a very good point. Type and amount of additives is very rarely specified, although you can find some info in the academic literature.

As a person completely naive to the finer points of plastics manufacture-do these additives tend to be drawn from a fairly small and well-understood universe of chemicals and combined in predictable ways, or is it a bit more DIY at the level of a specific manufacturing plant or product spec or batch run?

I guess my mind is instinctively reaching for the ways FDA attempts to ensure food safety by compelling manufacturers to publish ingredient lists, and by maintaining registries [0] of hopefully-well-understood additives (and banning the rest, in historically dangerous categories like colorants).

Sure from time to time agitators take that information out of context to whip up a scare about one ingredient or another, and sure some of the food that comes in from overseas has after-the-fact labeling that’s a little sus. But at least there’s an expectation that the information must exist and be legible.

[0] https://www.fda.gov/food/food-ingredients-packaging/determin...

Re: Plastics are poisoning us

#412

Post by hospitalJail »

anigbrowl wrote: post #334
hospitalJail wrote: post #133

The word 'Plastic' needs to die. Instead we should be more specific on the type of plastic. Teflon, PLA, ABS, resins, foams, etc... are all plastics, but they are so unrelated outside their long chains, its terrible to stereotype them all into one category. You aren't going to get cancer from PLA or Teflon, but rather the manufacturing process. You can eat these plastics as far as I know and you'd be fine. Eat someth…

Maybe the solution is better labeling. No, we are awash in labels already and I am sick of everything having a legal treatise attached to it. Labels just throw the problem back in the laps of consumers, an approach which clearly does not work.

It would transform recycling.

You might not think much about having specific types of labels, but its basically impossible for a chemist to know anything beyond ~8 generic types of plastic in the US.

Re: Plastics are poisoning us

#413

Post by nnf »

vel0city wrote: post #263
nnf wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have similarly low electric bills for much of the year by way of solar panels and Powerwalls. The solar power is enough to power the whole house (with all electric HVAC & appliances, and no natural gas), charge the batteries, charge the car, and export the excess to the grid. Most nights the batteries supply enough power to make it through the night, even with the A/C or heat running intermittently. Only when the b…

What was the upfront cost for your setup? If it costs me $20k to get the solar panels + battery set up and they're good for ~15-20 years, its not really a $2/mo power bill. Amortizing the $20k over 20 years that's still just under $84/mo for the hardware. If it only lasts me 15 years its ~$111/mo. And that's assuming I had all the cash on hand at the time to install the system and didn't need to take out a loan. If I…

It was way more than $20k, but I didn’t do it for the cost savings. If I remember right, the panels are warranted for 20 years and are supposed to last at least 25, and I think the batteries are guaranteed for 10 years.

The batteries are so expensive that they pretty much throw cost savings out the window, but it’s very nice having the added resilience to power outages, as well as knowing we can run the A/C and charge the car (especially at night) without causing our local utility to burn more coal.

I’m not under any delusions that my solar panels are going to save the world, but at the same time I think it’s important that we all do what we can while we expend our efforts in other ways too (voting, petitioning local governments and utilities to allow and incentivize more solar, etc.) that will have a much bigger effect if successful. I also like setting an example for the people around me. Since adding solar, we’ve had several neighbors and family members ask about it, and two so far have added solar themselves. I of course don’t know, but I like to think I may have at least nudged them in the right direction when they decided to add solar to their own houses.

Re: Plastics are poisoning us

#414

Post by ericpauley »

mrybczyn wrote: post #332
realshadow wrote: post #11

I became a minimist to save the planet as much as i could. Its easier than any one could think you know. Here is what i have been doing for a decade and would receommend 1. Reusing plastic bags (i love cotton bags but not ideal). Fold and keep one or two in your pocket before you leave home 2. Support and use light software so you dont need to upgrade your gadgets (12y laptop i use) 3. Prepare and eat home cooked mea…

4. Biking - way more energy efficient - you'll get more MPG (Miles-Per-Gnocci).

Depending on the carbon footprint of the food you eat to power that bicycle the effective MPG may actually be quite poor. A e-bike has lower emissions than a cyclist powered by lentils.

Re: Plastics are poisoning us

#415

Post by anigbrowl »

concordDance wrote: post #394
anigbrowl wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe the solution is better labeling. No, we are awash in labels already and I am sick of everything having a legal treatise attached to it. Labels just throw the problem back in the laps of consumers, an approach which clearly does not work.

The problem is that without labels you're having someone in government decide what risk levels are acceptable to everyone and that simply doesn't work when you have a population that includes upper class suburban mum who is willing to pay for $100 bananas to decrease her lifetime cancer risk by 0.01% and a homeless dude with a $20/week food budget. And guess which one of these groups has actual influence on governmen…

I see your point though I think you're overstating it. TBH I think the nutrition facts label works reasonably well, and balances sufficiency with market flexibility.

Re: Plastics are poisoning us

#416

Post by AbrahamParangi »

hospitalJail wrote: post #133

The word 'Plastic' needs to die. Instead we should be more specific on the type of plastic. Teflon, PLA, ABS, resins, foams, etc... are all plastics, but they are so unrelated outside their long chains, its terrible to stereotype them all into one category. You aren't going to get cancer from PLA or Teflon, but rather the manufacturing process. You can eat these plastics as far as I know and you'd be fine. Eat someth…

We have this attitude regarding materials which is pretty close to “innocent until proven guilty” but the fact of the matter is that all you can know about any novel material is whether or not it kills you quickly.

I think we either need to appreciate that the industrial world is poisoned and take that as the cost of doing business OR stop poisoning ourselves at the cost of substantial technological progress.

Re: Plastics are poisoning us

#417

Post by asoneth »

grimgoldgo wrote: post #220
oezi wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand that Teflon might be a hazard in pans but feel like it reduces the amount of burned food in contrast to steel/iron pans so much for me that I hope it is a net gain. (sorry in advance for all who want to suggest iron skillets. I can't make them work in daily use.)

If you are regularly burning food in steel or iron pans, maybe it's time to understand why? I cook in exclusively iron and steel cookware and I cannot remember the last time something got burned (excepting when I deliberately charred something.)

I have been learning how to season, cook with, and clean cast iron. As someone who did not grow up using it it’s definitely not intuitive. The other challenge is that I either have to lock it away or teach everyone else in the household how to care for it. At various points in my life I’ve had coatings ruined by roommates, partners, guests, and housekeepers who did things that seemed perfectly sensible like letting it soak in soapy water.

It's similar to how my partner has a stainless steel pan that I avoid using because I have not had the bandwidth to internalize the right ratio of heat, time, and oil to cook things on it without burning/sticking, whereas they have no issue with it. It's a good reminder not to take internalized skill for granted.

Re: Plastics are poisoning us

#418

Post by bmurphy1976 »

joker_minmax wrote: post #407
hospitalJail wrote: post #133

The word 'Plastic' needs to die. Instead we should be more specific on the type of plastic. Teflon, PLA, ABS, resins, foams, etc... are all plastics, but they are so unrelated outside their long chains, its terrible to stereotype them all into one category. You aren't going to get cancer from PLA or Teflon, but rather the manufacturing process. You can eat these plastics as far as I know and you'd be fine. Eat someth…

I thought the reason people switched to PLA for 3D Printers is that the fumes for it were less toxic than other types of filament. I've never heard of PLA being used for food containers.

PLA has a low melting point. It's gonna end poorly as soon somebody sticks it in the Microwave or puts hot enough food in the container.

Re: Plastics are poisoning us

#419

Post by anigbrowl »

irrational wrote: post #345
anigbrowl wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe the solution is better labeling. No, we are awash in labels already and I am sick of everything having a legal treatise attached to it. Labels just throw the problem back in the laps of consumers, an approach which clearly does not work.

Like those "WARNING: This product can expose you to [name of chemical], which is known to the State of California to cause cancer. For more information, go to www.P65Warnings.ca.gov." stickers. Fortunately I don't live in California.

Yes, they're so ubiquitous as to be useless. I don't know what I'm being exposed to or in what concentrations, so most of the time I just ignore them.

Re: Plastics are poisoning us

#420

Post by tfourb »

nukeman wrote: post #356
tfourb wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We basically built an all-wooden house: Timber posts and beams (not the flimsy sticks that are used commonly in construction in the US but solid 8" posts), interlocking OSB-boards on the inside for air tightness (this can also be achieved with other wood-based techniques, my house has an air tightness comparable to passive house construction), wood fibre insulation material (15+ inches on all sides and the roof), cla…

Interesting, what made you go for wood fiber insulation versus something like ICF? Also, UK or Canada? Noticed the spelling difference.

Germany, actually ;-)

We chose wood fibre because we wanted the house's CO2 footprint to be as low as possible. We are slightly above passive house levels in terms of ongoing energy use (mostly because the house has an inefficient shape = not a cube) and we produce more kw/h from solar power each year than we use despite having a relatively inefficient electricity-based heating system. But we also wanted to reduce the CO2 emitted during construction and cement/concrete is really bad in that regard.

The wood fibre insulation has a fraction of the embodied energy/CO2 emissions of concrete and fossil fuel based insulation and it is fully compostable. I could theoretically also be reused if the house is demolished at some point, as it doesn't deteriorate if it stays dry (or is allowed to dry quickly after getting wet), though I think that would be unlikely to happen. Also, wood fibre is an excellent insulator against heat, which is nice given that our summers can get quite hot.

The wood-only construction also eliminates all thermal bridges, as wood is itself an insulator and the required fasteners are small diameter and do not reach through the entire wall.

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