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The damaging results of mandated return to office

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Re: The damaging results of mandated return to office

#271

Post by dwallin »

pvdoom wrote: post #173
ensocode wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True. Maybe it is even the other way around. A farmer lives on his farm. He works there, he raises his family there, grows his food there, lives there, has his friends around there. For my perspective it is more back to the roots than progressive. If you can work from the place were you live then this is more natural than commuting into the office block every day. Technology here gave us a opportunity to live a more…

I think it's both. A farmer could do that, because they tend to own their farm. A worker usually has no ownership in the business. They're more like farmhands ...

This is a consequence of the industrial revolution and the invention of factories, which is relatively short in the span of humanities existence. Before that laborers would almost certainly work where they lived or very close nearby.

Re: The damaging results of mandated return to office

#272

Post by hdjjhhvvhga »

the_bear wrote: post #261
hdjjhhvvhga wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's why I don't understand the insistence on RTO. It's clear from all discussions that people have different views on the topics. So why don't give people a choice? Those who want to work in the office should be free to do so, as should be the rest of us who sees no reasons to go back. In this scenario everybody is happy and more productive.

Many people who want to work from the office are mostly interested in doing so because they want to be around their coworkers. If their coworkers are remote, they won't get what they want. Similarly, remote people might not be happy at a company that allows remote work but primarily has an in-person culture. Letting everyone do what they want is not a path towards everyone being happy. I think a better approach is fo…

I understand that point of view but I don't agree with it. I work remotely because my coworkers are in different countries. But some of them come to local offices because they like it. This is a great setup for everybody and noone is complaining.

I know anecdata doesn't count but I observed the same in various companies: yes, those who prefer to work from the office miss their colleagues, but are surrounded by like-minded people and that works better for everyone.

Re: The damaging results of mandated return to office

#273

Post by hdjjhhvvhga »

glimshe wrote: post #259
hdjjhhvvhga wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's why I don't understand the insistence on RTO. It's clear from all discussions that people have different views on the topics. So why don't give people a choice? Those who want to work in the office should be free to do so, as should be the rest of us who sees no reasons to go back. In this scenario everybody is happy and more productive.

I'm all for WFH and dislike going to the office often. But it's the same argument as the parent, from the company's perspective. Once local executives taste the fruits of in-person "watch the cattle" control, which was the entirety of their careers, it's hard for them to go back to "forced worker freedom".

Yeah but the choice is clear. Most tech workers prefer remote work or at least freedom of choice.

Re: The damaging results of mandated return to office

#274

Post by arnvidr »

ddevault wrote: post #209
ac2u wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where did the person you’re replying to imply they didn’t have solidarity or wanted office work imposed on everyone? The parent poster simply said “Once you’ve tasted the fruits of WFH and you like the taste, you’ll never go back.” And the reply was essentially “to each their own but my WFH experience was different “ and you’re ready to jump down their throat with accusations of lack of solidarity.

It's just such a pointless distraction. Don't make it about you? It reminds me of men who hear that women get paid less and start complaining about their own salary. "Hey, we have this problem." "To each their own but it doesn't affect me!" Why waste your breath to say this?

They didn't say that? They directly replied to the claim that once you tried WFH you would never go back. Sounds like they were directly affected by it, and had a different experience.

Re: The damaging results of mandated return to office

#275

Post by alistairSH »

voisin wrote: post #28
alistairSH wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except almost all white-collar offices (in the US at least) went remote during the first 2-3 years of COVID. Most did so successfully. Yet, many now want to return to traditional office work with little evidence that’s a better way to work.

> Most did so successfully. There’s a lot of nuance being glossed over here and I don’t think this is clear cut. Successfully for who? All stakeholders? Every department? Customers and suppliers too? Does this success translate to a non-pandemic environment with lower expectations by everyone given the circumstances?

Wife works for a retail bank. Front-line employees didn't go remote - they need to be in retail bank locations serving customers. Back-office employees were 98% in-office prior to COVID. In several weeks, the company pivoted to remote work, including procurement of laptops (most non-managers had desktops). During the 2.5-3 years of COVID-induced WFH, their engagement numbers and measured productivity went up.

I've heard similar stories from friends and family in similar workplaces.

While I realize that's all anecdotal, I haven't heard any stories countering this narrative.

All that said, I like being in the office a few days/week for all the reasons mentioned. But, my team is all remote (hired that way, mostly pre-COVID), so even when I'm at the office, I'm only chatting with peers on other teams, not the people I'm doing project work with.

Re: The damaging results of mandated return to office

#276

Post by alistairSH »

CtrlAltDelete51 wrote: post #32
alistairSH wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except almost all white-collar offices (in the US at least) went remote during the first 2-3 years of COVID. Most did so successfully. Yet, many now want to return to traditional office work with little evidence that’s a better way to work.

You have a source for any of that? Speaking personally, everyone I’ve spoken to on the matter (myself included) have zero desire to return to a traditional office.

A source for companies rolling out return-to-office plans? It's all over the news. Not sure what you're asking.

Re: The damaging results of mandated return to office

#277

Post by somsak2 »

abduhl wrote: post #269
somsak2 wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i don't think I'd mind that actually. I'd happily take a slight pay cut to be able to stay home

Who said anything about slight? Assume your average commute is 1 hour each way. According to most HN users, the average dev can’t do more than 3-4 hours of “intense focus” work per day. Instead of paying you for “10” hours of being in the office and commuting to, I’d pay you for 3-4 hours of “intense focused” work. That’s 50%, being generous.

what an insane standard. it's easy to find sources for an average commute [0], your assumption is more than double the total of we're really talking about 1h of an 8h workday, so about 11-13% depending on your denominator. not trivial but something I'd happily do.

0 https://www.zippia.com/advice/average-commute-time-statistic...

Re: The damaging results of mandated return to office

#278

Post by jaclaz »

pvdoom wrote: post #258
jaclaz wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we go back in time it wasn't the case always. A common form of agricultural contract in many countries, up to the WWII and in some countries even after was a form of rent where the owner provided the farm, and the tenant worked on it and they divided the crop (or whatever the farm produced), in English it is called sharecropping: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharecropping

Which is very interesting to consider how it relates to capitalism today, and how in essence you are paying some amount of rent to your employer, in the form of the profits of the work - the leftover after salaries are paid and expenses covered.

I am not getting it.

In sharecropping (with a lot of nuances depending on the specific countries and even different regions in a same country) the landowner and the tenant were some sort of partners, both had all the interest in having a better/larger crop (or raise more cattle, etc.).

In a normal capitalistic employer/employee relationship, the employees have no particular interest in the final outcome, they are only scared of being fired if they don't meet some (often arbitrarily set) "productivity goals".

Re: The damaging results of mandated return to office

#279

Post by ochronus »

We need the flexibility to choose, there's no one size fits all here. Workplaces also need to cater for different needs and be appealing enough to make it worth going there. I've analyzed the results of a study on this last week: https://leadership.garden/back-to-the-office/

Re: The damaging results of mandated return to office

#280

Post by derwiki »

tetromino_ wrote: post #242
NKosmatos wrote: post #103

Once you’ve tasted the fruits of WFH and you like the taste, you’ll never go back. It’s like going from a black and white TV to a color one, from a dummy phone to a smartphone, from dialup internet to fiber to the home. You never go the other way round, unless there is a very strong reason and personal decision. People like to improve their lives in whatever way is best for them and will strongly object to a “downgra…

> Once you’ve tasted the fruits of WFH and you like the taste, you’ll never go back. Let me guess, you are in a low cost of living area (at least relative to your income) and have a big house? I live in NYC. Residential floor space is very expensive here. My wife and I on two tech salaries can afford a fairly large place by the standards of our area, but it's definitely not large enough for 2 adults to comfortably wo…

Working from anywhere with a toddler running around seems unproductive
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