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The damaging results of mandated return to office

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Re: The damaging results of mandated return to office

#261

Post by the_bear »

hdjjhhvvhga wrote: post #256
tetromino_ wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Once you’ve tasted the fruits of WFH and you like the taste, you’ll never go back. Let me guess, you are in a low cost of living area (at least relative to your income) and have a big house? I live in NYC. Residential floor space is very expensive here. My wife and I on two tech salaries can afford a fairly large place by the standards of our area, but it's definitely not large enough for 2 adults to comfortably wo…

That's why I don't understand the insistence on RTO. It's clear from all discussions that people have different views on the topics. So why don't give people a choice? Those who want to work in the office should be free to do so, as should be the rest of us who sees no reasons to go back. In this scenario everybody is happy and more productive.

Many people who want to work from the office are mostly interested in doing so because they want to be around their coworkers. If their coworkers are remote, they won't get what they want. Similarly, remote people might not be happy at a company that allows remote work but primarily has an in-person culture.

Letting everyone do what they want is not a path towards everyone being happy. I think a better approach is for companies (or at least teams) to land somewhere on the spectrum from full in-person to full remote, and then employees can work at the place that fits them best.

Re: The damaging results of mandated return to office

#262

Post by coryfklein »

tetromino_ wrote: post #242
NKosmatos wrote: post #103

Once you’ve tasted the fruits of WFH and you like the taste, you’ll never go back. It’s like going from a black and white TV to a color one, from a dummy phone to a smartphone, from dialup internet to fiber to the home. You never go the other way round, unless there is a very strong reason and personal decision. People like to improve their lives in whatever way is best for them and will strongly object to a “downgra…

> Once you’ve tasted the fruits of WFH and you like the taste, you’ll never go back. Let me guess, you are in a low cost of living area (at least relative to your income) and have a big house? I live in NYC. Residential floor space is very expensive here. My wife and I on two tech salaries can afford a fairly large place by the standards of our area, but it's definitely not large enough for 2 adults to comfortably wo…

Hence the "and you like the taste" qualification. I don't think OP is talking about you.

Re: The damaging results of mandated return to office

#263

Post by somsak2 »

okeuro49 wrote: post #227
Ancalagon wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the kicker for me. Work can’t be done productively from home? Fine then. My laptop goes in my backpack at 5pm when I get into my car, and it stays there until I pull it out at the office at 9am tomorrow.

Unless you're being paid to be on-call, if you're WFH, you should still close the lid on your laptop at 5pm and open it at 9am.

Most people doing software are salaried, not hourly, so this doesn't really apply very cleanly.

Would you rather get paid $100k and be paid extra for oncall, or $350k and not be compensated for oncall? That's the real comparison that's being made, and why people consistently choose the FAANGs where on-call is an expectation -- the extra on call pay isn't going to make up for the big gap in total comp.

Re: The damaging results of mandated return to office

#264

Post by somsak2 »

jupp0r wrote: post #116
dclowd9901 wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Logistically, how does this work? Do employees need to install trackers on their phones to catalog hours? Not saying it wouldn’t be ideal to have that segment of the day paid for, but I’m just trying to get my head around how the tightwad money folk deal with such a nebulous target.

Google Maps directions from home to office printed out and emailed to payroll.

would be much easier for hr to just use the address you already have to provide them when getting onboarded and then use an API to get commute times

Re: The damaging results of mandated return to office

#265

Post by somsak2 »

abduhl wrote: post #76
jupp0r wrote: post #57

Companies who mandate return to the office should pay employees for the additional commute time at their hourly rate. If this becomes too expensive then productivity gains from being in the office are apparently not worth it.

Careful with this kind of demand. It’s possible that companies may pay the office workers their increased rate simply by reducing pay to remote workers.

i don't think I'd mind that actually. I'd happily take a slight pay cut to be able to stay home

Re: The damaging results of mandated return to office

#266

Post by ThinkBeat »

This is a matter of power and the marketplace.

I wonder what the real-world stats for different professions are as to employees preferring work from home vs at the office.

I do know many workers who do not want to work at home. The office was a break from the screaming kids and / or no AC / or have a home that is just not practical as an office / or just prefer a clean break between what is work / office and what is home.

Plus, a lot of people behave differently when they are dressed up professionally for work. Again, the distinction between home and work is valuable for some.

We have somewhere between 100 - 300 years of experience having people working at the office. We know a lot about how that works / or doesn't.

Working from home full time at scale is not yet studied to the extent we can draw real conclusions from it.

A couple of years is far too short. So it is an experiment.

Personally, I prefer to work from home, but I am not so sure I will be able to long term.

My prediction is that working from the office will become increasingly common over time with some professions going back to the office short term and other longer term.

And some companies will prefer fully remote.

I am not sure what the breakdown will be in 50 years.

Re: The damaging results of mandated return to office

#267

Post by m0llusk »

ThinkBeat wrote: post #266

This is a matter of power and the marketplace. I wonder what the real-world stats for different professions are as to employees preferring work from home vs at the office. I do know many workers who do not want to work at home. The office was a break from the screaming kids and / or no AC / or have a home that is just not practical as an office / or just prefer a clean break between what is work / office and what is…

Mostly I do remote work from a coworking facility. This is liberating for me in much the same way as work from home, but has none of the downsides you mention. The article keeps returning to the term "flexibility" which occurs 22 times. It seems the experiments underway are more varied and complex than a simple work from home test run that breaks sharply away from hundreds of years of experience.

Re: The damaging results of mandated return to office

#268

Post by bluefirebrand »

RestlessMind wrote: post #51
bluefirebrand wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is far from ideal, but it's what we'll get It's not ideal, but it's also almost no different than the teleconferencing with satellite offices that we had previously anyways. Just instead of calling other offices overseas or whatever, you're calling people at their homes or their own chosen offices.

Unless hybrid means all the employees are mandated to be in the office on the same days. And they can WFH or RTO on the remaining days. At least that's what I am seeing among my social circle.

Sure but any company above a certain size has more than one office, or overseas contractors..

If everyone is dialing in to the daily stand-up from their desks, what is the point of having everyone commute to the office to do it?

Re: The damaging results of mandated return to office

#269

Post by abduhl »

somsak2 wrote: post #265
abduhl wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Careful with this kind of demand. It’s possible that companies may pay the office workers their increased rate simply by reducing pay to remote workers.

i don't think I'd mind that actually. I'd happily take a slight pay cut to be able to stay home

Who said anything about slight? Assume your average commute is 1 hour each way. According to most HN users, the average dev can’t do more than 3-4 hours of “intense focus” work per day. Instead of paying you for “10” hours of being in the office and commuting to, I’d pay you for 3-4 hours of “intense focused” work. That’s 50%, being generous.

Re: The damaging results of mandated return to office

#270

Post by tetromino_ »

Cymrukicks wrote: post #253
tetromino_ wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Once you’ve tasted the fruits of WFH and you like the taste, you’ll never go back. Let me guess, you are in a low cost of living area (at least relative to your income) and have a big house? I live in NYC. Residential floor space is very expensive here. My wife and I on two tech salaries can afford a fairly large place by the standards of our area, but it's definitely not large enough for 2 adults to comfortably wo…

Or you could keep your jobs and move to a lower cost of living area making us of more space?

Irrespective of lack of space, NYC is the only place in the US where I have enjoyed living.
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