441–450 of 1001 posts
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[flagged]
I can't flag yet, but you were flagged because your comment included a lie insinuating that queer people are predators, specifically that they "indoctrinate and neuter children". Most people would recognise that as hate speech, and older people would remember that the exact same hate speech was used against homosexuals (and still is, by many of the most fervent spreaders of the idea today).
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The opposite of emotional support is if you're crying, people around you say "don't be a baby." Actual emotional support can take a lot of different forms. I'd say that it includes someone recognising the emotions you're having, not judging them, not stopping you from expressing them, and talking about the emotions afterwards if you're up for it.
The really hard thing is finding the right balance. “Don’t be a baby” isn’t good, but over-compensating too far in the other direction doesn’t do a kid any favors either. There are times when being a good dad can mean (kindly) pushing kids out of their comfort zones or tempering excessive self-pity. I’m currently trying to teach my 4 year old daughter to swim, so this is very front-of-mind for me. If it was up to her…
There's not much space between emotional support and indulgence. Parents' anxieties fill that space tho :)
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The really hard thing is finding the right balance. “Don’t be a baby” isn’t good, but over-compensating too far in the other direction doesn’t do a kid any favors either. There are times when being a good dad can mean (kindly) pushing kids out of their comfort zones or tempering excessive self-pity. I’m currently trying to teach my 4 year old daughter to swim, so this is very front-of-mind for me. If it was up to her…
I agree 100% with this, but I think this balancing act doesn't have to be gendered as the common view of crying is.
For most things in life where we could impact the lives of other people materially - driving is a good example - we ensure some minimal amount of training before letting people perform that activity.
However with parenting we have nothing and the result it seems is we pay with a ton more resources downstream in the way of therapy, detention centers, jails etc.
How about some minimal coaching so that all parents are aware of the state of the art in child psychology and techniques to do better as parents. Potentially break the cycles of bad parenting that have been running in families for a long time (I write this as one such person).
I expect it will be hard (nay impossible) to institute a parenting license (like a driving license) in a democratic society. So instead have a strong incentive in the way of a financial grant for every parent who clears a parenting curriculum sometime before their child turns 1 (or some appropriate marker). Keep the freebees /incentives piling on during the kids childhood so parents are motivated to undertake "continuing education"
Parenting is truly important stuff - for many parents it is the most important responsibility we'll ever have in our lives- but we seem to leave it to chance to get the right outcomes.
In the nineties I joined a men's group retreat where we circled up and listened to each other's struggles, gave lots of support, and lots of hugs. Then we did some consciousness raising around circumcision and it's barbarity. We took our cue from the Feminist movement. They were getting their shit together and so could we. Gary Snyder read his gorgeous nature poetry, Peter Berg sold us on a green cities concept that…
I'm a man who's currently deeply lonely, depressed, and struggling with poor self-esteem. I hear feminists talking about "toxic masculinity". But none of what they say feels applicable to me. I've never been violent; I'm currently trying therapy for the third time; and I can't remember even a single time when someone told me to "man up". So, while I'm sure toxic masculinity is a real problem for some men, I don't feel like it's the issue that's hurting me personally.
The issues that do feel like they're hurting me personally are things like:
* Negative stereotypes of men as incompetent, boorish, etc.
* The widespread attitude that "men suck"
* The stereotypes of socially awkward men (like me) as gross/creepy/neckbeards/etc.
* Difficulty navigating expectations around how dating and relationships are supposed to work, especially as a socially awkward man
The feminist movement does a great job of addressing the issue of toxic masculinity. But when it comes to the issues I listed above, many feminists don't take them seriously, and some feminists are actually making them worse:
* A feminist in this thread making excuses for the "incompetent, boorish dad" stereotype in media: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36473710
* A feminist in this thread making excuses for saying "men suck": https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36474484
* That time when a socially awkward man talked about his feelings (https://scottaaronson.blog/?p=2091#comment-326664) and a feminist said some extremely toxic things in response (https://web.archive.org/web/20150113081455/http://www.rawsto...) (Yes, that controversy was eight years ago, but it's really stuck with me)
Now, I'm definitely not trying to say that "feminism is terrible" or anything like that. Feminists are fighting the good fight on many gender-equality issues. Feminism arguably deserves credit for why I never had to struggle with toxic masculinity, and I'm grateful for that. But at the same time, there are unfortunately some really shitty people in the feminist movement, and they're are causing real harm to people like me. And my experience has been that the feminist movement defends and enables those people, rather than letting them be held accountable.
So my reaction to the article is: I know toxic masculinity is a real problem, and I'm glad feminists are fighting against that problem. But the problems that are hurting me personally are different from toxic masculinity, and unfortunately some feminists are actually exacerbating my problems. So, when I hear feminists blaming most/all of mens' problems on toxic masculinity, that actually feels to me like it's derailing the conversation from the issues that are most important to me.
I hope my perspective helps you see another side of the issue.
Here's a thought and I am writing this as I don my kevlar flame retardant jacket. For most things in life where we could impact the lives of other people materially - driving is a good example - we ensure some minimal amount of training before letting people perform that activity. However with parenting we have nothing and the result it seems is we pay with a ton more resources downstream in the way of therapy, deten…
I highly recommend I Don’t Want To Talk About It by Terry Real or The Will To Change by bell hooks (which extensively cites the former) on this topic. We don’t talk enough about the harm patriarchy inflicts on boys and men through emotional neglect and detachment.
Ideologies are not something you are, people are not patriarchy-ists. Ideologies are something you do, which means people act in a patriarchal way, likely based on ideological reasons, often without ever consciously thinking about the underlying ideology. To better understand patriarchy, what are some examples of people "doing" patriarchy?
How do I test if something is patriarchy?
Here's a thought and I am writing this as I don my kevlar flame retardant jacket. For most things in life where we could impact the lives of other people materially - driving is a good example - we ensure some minimal amount of training before letting people perform that activity. However with parenting we have nothing and the result it seems is we pay with a ton more resources downstream in the way of therapy, deten…
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It isn’t either/or. It’s cumulative. Joseph Campbell emphasized the idea of the “second father.” A mentor who takes a young man further than his father can. A father has to love you, but the second fathers love has to be earned. Think NCOs in the military, coaches, sensais in martial arts. We aren’t just missing fathers, we’re missing second fathers. Not many people would describe a gunny sergeant, or football coach,…
I wholly agree with "second fathers." I am Gen X, and I think one of the social institutions which has quietly vanished before I could quite get to it was the old Roman concept of "patronage." Without understanding I was doing it until embarrassingly late, I spent a lot of time looking for those second fathers, the mentors, the patrons. What broke it for me was someone who was clearly suited for the role, and had ben…
Some of those “wrong groups” are just flat out scammers and charlatans though - see those “alpha male” influencers hawking their courses or whatever. They are taking advantage of a need in others to enrich themselves without really giving a damn about their charges.
In the nineties I joined a men's group retreat where we circled up and listened to each other's struggles, gave lots of support, and lots of hugs. Then we did some consciousness raising around circumcision and it's barbarity. We took our cue from the Feminist movement. They were getting their shit together and so could we. Gary Snyder read his gorgeous nature poetry, Peter Berg sold us on a green cities concept that…